Dr. Mary Anderson: EPISODE LINK
THE HAPPY HIGH ACHIEVER: LINK
Transcript:
Colleen:
Welcome back to Hot Flashes and Cool Topics. Today we are going to have a very
interesting conversation about happy high achievers and if you are a high achiever,
you already know you’re one of them. But we have a great conversation with author
Dr. Mary Anderson. She’s a clinical psychologist, and she’s the author of the Happy
High Achiever, Eight Essentials to Overcome Anxiety, Manage Stress, and Energize
Yourself for Success Without Losing Your Edge. Welcome to the show.
Dr. Mary Anderson:
Thank you so much, ladies. I’m so excited and honored to be here with you all today. Hello to
all the listeners out there.
Colleen:
Well, your book is so interesting. Bridgett and I really
enjoyed reading And I think, you know, we’re not going to lie, we see visions of
ourselves in some of the essentials, maybe a little bit. But I wanted to start kind
of right before you go into the eight different essentials and we’ll talk about
those. You talk about optimizing your thoughts for success. And you have like
thoughts, feelings, behavior. Can you talk about that kind of linear relationship?
Dr. Mary Anderson:
Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much. Great, great question. Such an important point is
that our thoughts, feelings and behaviors all directly impact each other. And that’s
so important to understand that relationship because then we can really optimize how
we feel and how we perform, right? And so the approach I use when I’m helping
patients is cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT. It’s empirically supported for the
treatment of anxiety, depression, and what it is is a two -pronged approach. We
really work on optimizing thoughts, so that’s the C, the cognitions of cognitive
behavioral therapy, so we’re optimizing our thoughts and also we’re going to optimize
behaviors, so cognitive behavioral, so the thoughts and the behaviors, and why do we
do that? Because they directly impact how we feel. So if you want to feel better,
you have to work on improving self -talk and self -care. And what I’ve seen with my
high achievers who really struggle with anxiety, chronic stress, self -doubt,
worry, perfectionism, I’m seeing a lot of perfectionism nowadays, is that the ambition
that they have is not the problem. Ambition is great, ambition and drive are great.
The issue is chronic, unhelpful self -talk. So those thoughts, they’re having
chronically unhelpful thoughts. And then in terms of behaviors, there’s this relentless
pace sometimes that high achievers have, a relentless pace where they’re not
implementing healthy self -care behaviors regularly. And that’s what’s contributing to
them feeling so much anxiety, stress, and worry. –
Bridgett:
Right, and you make it a point
in the book that self -care doesn’t necessarily, it doesn’t mean like going to take
a bubble bath or whatever. It’s really taking care of what’s happening to you.
Can you talk a little bit about that?
Dr. Mary Anderson:
Absolutely. I love talking about self -care.
And yes, we got to debunk this self -care myth, that it means two hour long,
you know, bubble baths and week -long meditation retreats. And those are great if we
have time for those. But how many of us really have time for that, right? So what
I talk to my high achievers with anxiety, just All of us in general, what we need
to do is prioritize self -care, but in a streamlined way so it feels doable. If we
keep it feeling doable, we’ll keep doing it, right? So what I’ve come up with, and
I talk about in my book, “The Happy High Achiever,” is the four science -based self
-care fundamentals that will give you the best bang for your buck. You’re gonna be
putting time and energy into self -care and you’re feeling overwhelmed, do you have
an overextended schedule? We gotta get really strategic, right? So there’s four self
-care fundamentals and how I help people remember them is with the acronym self. So
it’s S -E -L -F. And I can run through those for you if you want.
– Sure. – Okay, so S is sleep. So sleep, we wanna aim for seven hours or more a
night. As adults, we need seven or more hours a night. And why is that so
important? I think we know how we feel, we’re not getting good sleep. And research
shows chronic lack of rest can really negatively impact things like memory,
concentration, attention. But conversely, if we get good sleep, so again,
that seven hours or more a night, it can really improve things like productivity,
problem solving, memory. So there’s so many benefits to good sleep. So sleep is
essential. Then the E in self -care is exercise. And again, I think we know how
important it is to exercise. Here I like to really highlight that our aim is just
30 minutes or more most days. And I think for high achievers, sometimes we have
this like, go big mentality, you know, this all or nothing kind of thinking that
unfortunately can stymie our progress because I’ll have patients saying well Dr. A I
need to go to the gym you know five days a week and if they only go three they
feel like they failed and then they just stop going to the gym. So if we can keep
it really doable and really highlight the benefits of something like walking I love
to walk and there’s a super low risk of injury with walking and what we know it’s
a really efficient way to metabolize cortisol so cortisol, our stress hormone,
walking, physical activity is one of the most efficient ways to reduce cortisol, so
it’s going to be really effective for preventing and healing burnout. So that’s the
E. L of SELF for self -care is look forward. And this is the one that sometimes
patients and people who have talked to you about the Happy High Cheaper book are
like, wow, I didn’t really think of this as self -care, But the L is look forward
and our goal is to have at least one pleasant activity to look forward to every
week Why is that so important? Because it provides a powerful mood boost when we
have something to look forward to just the anticipation of something positive is
Powerful right think about planning a vacation just thinking about the vacation even
if it’s weeks away Gets you it. So what we have to do is just modify that for
our everyday busy lives and keep it really doable because we can’t go on vacation
every week. It is helpful to know when our next vacation will be, but on the,
you know, the daily or in a week, just have one thing a week that feels doable,
like planning a meetup with a friend or booking a massage. Or for me, sometimes I’m
like, I’m just going to get my favorite takeout on day, night after a long day.
And then in the days leading up to that, remind yourself that you have this great
thing you’re looking forward to. And then it’s like double -meaning for your book,
right? You’ll enjoy the activity when you’re doing it and just when you’re thinking
about it. So that’s the L. And then the last one of SELF is fuel. And this,
again, we really know we got to fuel our body well with good nutrition and
hydration because it really will impact our cognitive performance. And sometimes I’ll
see people just going hours and hours without eating. And I’m like, guys, we got to
help you make healthy eating convenient. So I’m like, keep snacks with you. If
you’re out traveling, bring some mixed nuts, a piece of fruit, a protein bar. So
people, if they’re studying for something, bring it to the library with you. If
you’re at your desk and you’re feeling like you’re swamped with meetings, keep
something convenient right near you. So fuel your body and brain with good nutrition
and hydration. Drinking water really does matter, so I’m like, keep that handy. The
other thing is to fuel your mind with quiet. Think about how much of our day we’re
just bombarded, barraged with information, problems to solve, scrolling on our phones.
If we can just strategically take even a minute or two, more is great, but just a
minute or to each day to do some deep breathing, which I teach to a lot of
patients, to do things like getting out into nature, into green spaces or blue
spaces. So, you know, parks or just your backyard or get near the ocean or rivers.
We know from research it helps calm the nervous system. So just a little bit of a
rest and recharge can make all the difference for our functioning. So again, that’s
SELF, sleep, exercise, look forward and fuel. Those are the four science -based self
-care fundamentals to prioritize, to keep yourself energized so you can move forward
and feel and be your best.
Bridgett:
And what I love about that is that it’s doable.
Like you said, doable. They don’t have to be huge grand gestures, just like you
said. Just like the look forward, getting something to eat or even I’m going to go
make me my cup of coffee and put this special cream at it or whatever. It’s just
yeah very doable.
Dr. Mary Anderson:
Yep and that’s really the crucial part is that we’ve got to keep
it doable and stay flexible with how we implement it. So if someone writes schedules
one pleasant activity that for some reason like it gets rained out or they can’t go
to I really encourage patients adapt as necessary stay flexible with things just plan
something else to do that day that you enjoy. And just like you’re saying, it can
be something little. Like I make sure I have like hand lotion that I like to use
or my little stress management ball that I’m like, okay, I’m gonna make sure that I
plan that in for a day when I like know it’s gonna be a long day of sitting.
I’ll be like, I’m gonna make sure that that’s next to me so that I can use that.
That seems so small, right? But these little moments of self -care, these little
moments, these micro moments of self -care, they add up and the additive effect is
what’s really going to be protective of our energy. I always talk about protector
energy, protector sparkle. You know, we have to protect that energy so that we can
continue to feel and be our best because everybody out there deserves that. We all
deserve to feel and be our best.
Colleen:
We’ve already learned so much and it’s only like
five minutes in, but – I think I skipped a point that I wanted to touch base on.
The book is called “The Happy High Achiever.” How do you know when you’re a high
achiever? Is it, what do you look for and say, “Maybe I meet these requirements,
or maybe I meet these characterizations?”
Dr. Mary Anderson:
– Oh, that is such a good question.
It’s so, oh, such a good question. I actually just did a presentation from my
colleagues about helping anxious high achievers, so high achieving patients with
anxiety. And I started with, how will we know we’re a high achiever, right?
And so this one, here’s some tricky, it’s a little tricky. So when I was talking
about anxious high achievers with clinicians, I was talking to mental health
providers, I said, diagnostically, we know what to listen for for anxiety, right? So
what we’re listening for are things like, you know, I’m really having a lot of
worry about a lot of different things and feeling it difficult to control the worry
and feeling anxious. We know what kind of panic symptoms so forth to. So that we
know. But how do we know that the high achiever part, right? It’s tricky. There’s
complexity because often high achievers don’t come in identifying as high achievers.
Often patients will come in, especially if they’re coming in for therapy. So it’s a
different intensity level, right? If patients are coming in saying I’m really
struggling with anxiety, they will say just that. They know, hey, doctor, I’m really
struggling with anxiety. I’m struggling with worry. So that’s helpful. It helps when
they’re, you know, like coming and identifying it, but they won’t come in saying
they’re high achiever because almost a hallmark of being a high achiever is that
people will point to what they haven’t done or achieved yet. And so that’s the
issue I’m finding is if people are coming in to see me, they’ll say, but you know,
I haven’t made partner at the law firm. So I work with a lot of lawyers, but I
haven’t made partner at the firm or well, I haven’t run a marathon. So they’ll
point to achievements or goals they haven’t yet accomplished. The other thing,
the second thing that I see, kind of there’s two main things, they point to goals
they haven’t achieved yet, or they point to how they don’t measure up against
someone else. They’ll say, but my colleagues have higher titles than I do, you know,
at their company, or they’ll say, well, you know, Dr. A, all my friends are
married, you know, and they they own their own homes, I don’t, I’m not a high
achiever. So they’ll point to ways in which they aren’t a high achiever, rather than
give themselves credit for all the things they’ve done. And I even asked my
colleagues on the presentation. It was a live virtual talk. And I said,
everyone out there said, we’re not going to share answers, you know, but just
reflect for a minute for yourself. Do you consider yourself a high achiever? And
everyone, and I could just see their faces being like, huh, you know, and I said,
by virtue of just being a since mental health professional, we have had to pass a
lot of tests and exams and are through clinical hours and face challenges and
overcome obstacles. And yet I wonder, and there was like hundreds of people on the
call, I’m like, I wonder how many of us out there stopped and thought to ourselves,
well, am I really a high achiever? And really started focusing on ways that we
aren’t. And so that’s something that I encourage them to think about is that people
likely coming in and aren’t going to necessarily identify as that.
So
And so I’ve helped definitely high -achieving, ambitious patients who were first
-generation Americans, hadn’t got their degree, yet they often were in college. So
students would come in and say, “Dr. A, I’m so stressed out.” And they really were
riddled with a lot of anxiety and stuff like that. And they’ll say, “I have so
much pressure on me, Dr. A. “I’m the first person in my family to go to college.”
And sometimes they were at community colleges, state schools, they were at Ivy League
universities, whatever school, it didn’t matter, it was just there was so much
pressure being put on them by their families and by themselves, right? And so what
I encourage people there is to focus on what are the qualities of a high achiever?
What are the traits and the issues that they’ll be dealing with? And so actually in
my book, “The Happy High Achiever,” in the introduction, I have a whole section
called, are you an anxious high achiever? And then I go through a list of some
anxious high achiever qualities to start helping readers know, did you find your way
to the right book? So things like your overwhelmed by self -doubt and your work
-study schedule, you feel massive pressure to keep achieving big and impressive
goals. And there’s a whole list on one page of qualities of high achievers.
And I think that’s really what will help point to is someone a high achiever. And
I encourage people to look at it for themselves because I often say as well, I
wouldn’t be the one to identify is someone a high achiever? Just initially I work
with them and I see how are they thinking about things and how are they looking at
their life and their ambition and their goals and do they feel like they identify
with these qualities and traits. –
Bridgett:
One of the things that, another thing that I love
that you have in your book is when you compare excellence to perfectionism.
Colleen:
– That’s number one, right? –
Bridgett:
That’s just spoke volumes. Can you share the importance
of excellence over perfectionism?
Dr. Mary Anderson:
– Absolutely. And I have to say, I’ve been seeing
more issues around perfectionism now than I have in years. And I’ve been a licensed
clinical psychologist for well over a decade. And especially recently, I’ve just seen
this explosion of issues around anxiety when people are trying to be perfect.
So with perfectionism, what I’m seeing is that patients, people are really tying
their self -worth to their appearance, achievements and performance. And I often
encourage people, if you make your internal worth, beholden into external validation,
you will live with chronic anxiety and worry. So again, if you make your internal
worth, behold into external validation, you will live with chronic anxiety and worry.
And that’s because people are thinking, I have to be perfect or else I’m a failure.
I have to be perfect, or I’m not lovable, worthy, or good enough. And what that
is, it’s all or nothing thinking. So all or nothing thinking is a type of cognitive
distortion. And cognitive distortions, unfortunately, are ubiquitous little beasts. We
all do them as humans, you know? So sometimes high -achievers are like, “I’m doing a
cognitive distortion, a thinking error, like how am I doing that?” We all do that,
right? So the issue is they’re unhelpful that’s originating from erroneous assumptions,
misinterpretations, faulty beliefs, and all or nothing thinking, is this really forcing
a dichotomy where there doesn’t need to be one and it needlessly ratchets up stress
and anxiety. I call it pressure cooker thinking. So perfectionism, what it does
honestly, it just makes people terrified of making mistakes or ever looking less than
the best. and that actually comes, interestingly, it limits high achievers.
So perfectionism limits high achievers and so I’ll often say perfectionism is the
Achilles heel of the ambitious because it’s going to limit people in a variety of
ways. First and foremost, it makes them hold back from trying new things.
Anything they think they’re not going to immediately look adept at or be proficient
at, they won’t even try if they.
If they. If they. If they. If they.
They’re going to hyper -focus on details and minutiae. They’re going to triple -check
things for typos. Sometimes where it’s not really necessary, like it’s an email,
but they’re going to triple -check it. Well, if you’re really busy, you can’t triple
-check every email. We got to learn how to prioritize. But sometimes high achievers,
when they’re really striving for perfection, they’re trying to make every single thing
they do perfect, which leads to the Last way that perfectionism is really not
helpful, what I call perfectionism fueled procrastination. When someone is tasked with
a project, a presentation, anything that’s important to them, they can start thinking
to themselves, what if it’s not as good as I want it to be? What if I don’t get
it right? They’ll say, doctor, this has to be perfect. And so what happens is they
don’t even start ’cause they’re too worried. They’re afraid that it’s not gonna be
good enough. So again, perfectionism really holds people back. They’re terrified of
ever looking less than the best for making mistakes. Now, conversely, excellence.
Excellence allows for both high achievement and our humanity. Excellence keeps our
standards high, right where we like ’em. It’s not about lowering our standards.
And sometimes when I’m working with high achievers, that’s what they’re really worried
about, You’re gonna, you know, do you want me to just be soft and lazy and
acquiesce to mediocrity and stagnation? No, that’s not what we’re talking about. I
swear there’s place for like self -compassion and high achievement. There is a way to
be kind to yourself I mean actually by taking good care of yourself with good self
-care and good self -talk You actually are setting yourself up to succeed and so I
teach them that set your standards high just be aware as humans we are going to
make mistakes and that it’s okay we don’t have to like it but we have to know
that they’re going to happen and that it does not in any way negatively impact our
self -worth that’s really important that they get it that it’s not going to impact
your self -worth that you still are going to have people who value you you’re so
worthy And that actually our mistakes, failures, fumbles, flaws,
we can use those to really learn from and can catapult us actually forward because
we can learn from and use them as content for growth. When we make a mistake or
when we do something less than we wish we could have, we can look at it and say,
“What do I wish I did differently next time?” Not just berate ourselves for not
being perfect.
Colleen:
– As a recovering perfectionist, still.
Bridgett:
(laughing)
Colleen:
– I can’t believe,
you were saying something like, what’s your point, should you not check an email
three times? Is that not a good thing?
But as a recovering perfectionist, I thought it was interesting in the book when you
talk about excellence because I didn’t know, originally, I didn’t know what you meant
by that. And in the book, you say excellence is the pursuit of achievement while
honoring our mental, which is happy and physical, which is healthy well -being. And I
thought that was really clear for people ’cause people are like, okay, well, what’s
the difference between being excellent and being perfect because we’re putting them on
the same platform and you’re really not. So I thought that was a really good
description in the book about that. It kind of hit home a little, maybe Bridgett
would know that.
Bridgett:
Like, ’cause she’s like, I don’t know. – A little bit of a – like
a little bit, but you know, it is, it is interesting because I, the, the whole
procrastination thing really struck with me, like I’m so nervous about how something’s
going to turn out that I, you put it off, you put it off and then you’re rushed
and then it really, it’s not going to be excellent or perfect, you know, it’s, it’s
really going to be a problem.
Dr. Mary Anderson:
And you know, I know you also had the energy and
the curve that you’re invest the ultimate currency, your energy.
Bridgett:
And I know you’ve
touched on that as well. And then you also, I love – – Shoulds and cans. I really
wanted to talk about the – –
Colleen:
Oh, talk about that. – Yeah, the number five essential,
changing your shoulds to cans. Can you talk about that? –
Dr. Mary Anderson:
Yes, absolutely. And I
just have to say, thank you so much, ladies. I love to hear that the content in
the book is really resonating with you and that it’s feeling practical? That’s really
one of my major goals is to provide practical, actionable science -based strategies
and skills. Because when patients come in to see me, they’ll say, “All right, Dr.
A, like, bullet point it for me.” And these are JDs, they’re lawyers, they’re
doctors, they’re researchers, they’re grad students. And so they just need something
practical in their days to help them move forward, right? And so really clear,
concise, practical information. So I’m so glad that it’s resonating with you.
And I love talking about shoulds. Hallmark of high achievers, right? We should all
of ourselves. And there’s three ways that we often should. And I talk about this in
the happy high achiever. We should ourselves. We should others. And we should
situations. So when we should ourselves, right? I should be able to handle this.
I should be doing more. I should, you know, I should be able to keep up. I should
be going to the gym more. All the shoulds, that how does that make us feel right?
So thoughts, feelings, behaviors, they all directly, you know, relate, they all
directly impact each other, right? So thoughts, feelings, behaviors, if we’re thinking,
I should be going to the gym every day, how does it make us feel? not good,
right? Like deficient. We all, we often will feel deflated, actually less motivated.
So paradoxically, the very thing we’re shooting about ourselves about, we’re actually
making it less likely that we’re going to do that very thing, because we’re making
ourselves feel bad, right? We’re going to feel guilty. And when we’re feeling
demotivated, guilty, bad about ourselves, behaviorally, does that move us forward? Not
usually. And not, certainly not sustainably, if we’re not feeling good about
ourselves. So that’s where with the shoulds, I discuss it out with patients.
So if they’re like, oh, Dr. A, I should be going to the gym more. I’ll ask
them, do you want to go to the gym? Do you think it would be helpful? Or do you
think you must? And I love it because my patients are so candid and they’re like,
I definitely don’t want to. I’m like, okay, so it’s something you want to, do you
feel you must? And I’m like, so what is it? And they’re like, well, I just think
it’d be helpful to go to the gym and I’ll say, well, why? Right? So if you stay
curious with why you’re telling yourself a should, that’s what’s gonna actually help
unstick you. The should will just keep people stuck behaviorally and feeling bad
about themselves. So I’ll get, I kind of drill down to like what, why are you
telling yourself this? And they’ll say, well, I think it would be helpful. I know
that exercise helps, you know, you’ve talked about stress management, I know it’s
good for my health, and then we can really get into the nitty -gritty of effective
problem solving and goal setting, and I’ll say, “So what I’m hearing is that you
think it would be helpful to exercise?” And they’re like, “Yeah.” I’m like, “Do you
need to go to the gym to exercise necessarily?” “Well, no.” “All right, so now
we’re getting somewhere.” I’m like, “Well, what could you do? Let’s see.” and so
will brainstorm. And it often is just bring your sneakers to work and go walk for
15, 20 minutes at your lunch break. Or I have a lot of people getting at home gym
equipment but something like a treadmill or even now they have like walking pads,
which is like a treadmill but smaller footprint. So I have people finding ways to
do walking or exercise that’s more convenient. And often high achievers will be like,
but does that count? I don’t, I don’t have to go to the gym. And I’m like, you
really don’t have to go to the gym. And in fact, if you’re not going to the gym,
that’s not actually even a helpful kind of goal to set for yourself, because you’re
not doing it, and you’re just going to feel worse, and you’re going to kind of
feed into that negative feedback loop. So I’ll say, what is it, you know, what do
you feel? What does it sound like to you if you went for a walk twice this week?
Just go for a walk twice this week outside. People say, I can do that. So again,
it’s turning a should of, I should be going to the gym every day, to I can go
for a walk outside twice this week. Yeah, I can do that. And I know, again, for
being a clinician for over a decade, I can tell the difference when someone’s like,
ah, I’ll try that, Dr. A, versus I can do that. So I work with them to get to
the point where they say I can. And sometimes, as high achievers, we think, well,
that’s not enough. And that’s the issue is we’re really overshooting with our goals
and it sets us up to fail. So I’ll encourage patients to identify that all are
nothing thinking and poke holes in it, see why it’s not necessarily true, it’s not
useful for them. And to know with goal setting, a string of single steps completed
is much better than a large leap never taken. So that’s how we turn shoulds to
cans in terms of when we’re shoulding ourselves. And then I also talk about when we
should other people, we usually just end up feeling resentful, which again, thoughts,
feelings, behavior. If we’re thinking to ourselves, he should be taking the trash out
every day. They should be easier to talk to. This should be, they should be doing
this. How are we gonna feel usually resentful, frustrated, and then behaviorally, it’s
not gonna help create optimal interpersonal communication. So there’s definitely ways
that I talk about in my book, how to help ourselves not should others, ’cause
again, it’s usually just gonna keep us stuck and not feeling good. And I also talk
about in the book, how to overcome shoulding situations when we’re kind of navigating
the challenges or what I call the swamps of life. –
Bridgett:
Yeah, yes, and another one of
yours is number two, is the, Oh, no, it’s number, is it number three? It’s the
uncertainty versus curiosity, which, you know, when we’re uncertain about something and
which we’re gonna face uncertainty all the time. If something’s new to us, we’re
uncertain about it, but I love the whole thing of switching to curiosity instead.
So can you talk a little bit about that?
Dr. Mary Anderson:
– Absolutely. How many of us haven’t just
sat and said like what if this doesn’t work out? What you know like what if they
don’t like me? What if it doesn’t work out?
And and there’s this it sounds simple but just shifting to I wonder so this is a
real concrete strategy when you notice you’re saying what if it doesn’t go well?
What if they don’t like me? I wonder. I wonder what will happen next. I wonder
what they think and just highlighting the fact that can we know what’s going to
happen in the future? No. So that’s always the ace up our sleeve. I tell my
patients, I’m like, this is the ace up your sleeve. If you’re doing what we call
negative fortune telling. So negative fortune telling is another cognitive distortion.
It’s one of what I call the troublesome trifecta. The three most common cognitive
distortions that I’ve found plague high achievers and are real obstacles to excellence
for high achievers. Negative fortune telling is when we are predicting that something
won’t go well, that hasn’t happened yet. And so in that moment, it’s really
important to just raise our awareness. I don’t have all the information yet.
I can’t know what’s gonna happen. And then we move from awareness into action by
saying, what could I focus on? What soft talk could I focus on that would help me
move forward? And again, it can be as simple as going from what if it doesn’t go
well, what if I fail the exam, just shift into I wonder what will happen,
I wonder what’s on the test, like figuring ways out to help yourself move forward
because it’s much more helpful if I’m helping like grad students with their exam,
thinking what if it doesn’t go well and very quickly what if it doesn’t go well,
can very quickly jump to, it’s not going to go well, Dr. A, I’m going to fail
my exam. So instead we shift them to, I wonder what will be on the test. I wonder
if I can have a study group. I wonder, you know, what books I can read or
articles I can read that will help me feel more confident about what’s going to be
on the exam. So we just shift from a what if to I wonder, and just by staying
curious, it can literally free up how we feel. So I often say, Stay curious about
uncertainty and then you can be hopeful about possibility and get excited about
opportunity. And it’s a three step process I talk about in the book to help people
when they’re navigating uncertainty, it can feel really scary and ambiguity can feel
scary to all of us. So knowing how to really help boost our common confidence
during times of ambiguity and uncertainty is such a powerful skill set because
especially in today’s world, we have to know how to face the uncertainty that we
all are facing every day. –
Colleen:
And you talk about the trifecta,
which you said, mind reading, what would be the other two parts of that trifecta?
Dr. Mary Anderson:
– Yes, so the troublesome trifecta, the first one is all or nothing thinking, and we
hit on that one with perfectionism. So all or nothing thinking is forcing a
dichotomy where there isn’t one. So black and white thinking. So things like, I need
to be perfect or I’m a failure. Or something like, if I hear patients say like,
everything, you know, everyone needs to be totally blown away by my project, Dr. A,
you know. So everything, everyone, or in the other direction, no one, always,
never, any of those really extremes, those absolutes, when we’re forcing our thoughts
into absolutes, Almost always, life is not lived in the absolutes. It’s lived more
in the middle, in the gray, right? So all or nothing thinking, absolutely can hinder
high achievers striving for excellence. So all or nothing thinking, the second one of
the troublesome trifecta is the jumping to conclusions. And jumping to conclusions
comes in kind of two flavors. It’s that negative fortune telling. So it’s not gonna
go well, I’m not going to get into the university I want or I’m not going to get
the job I want. And then the other kind of flavor of negative fortune telling is
mind reading. It is that like they’re not going to like me, they’re going to think
I’m incompetent. So that’s the mind reading where we’re assuming we know what other
people are thinking about us, which can we ever know what people are thinking? No,
I often say the only way we know what people are thinking is if they tell us and
they tell us the truth. So That’s the second one is the jumping conclusions. And
then the third one we’ve hit is the should statements. And that, again, just really
makes people feel badly and keeps them stuck behaviorally. So that shoulds.
And I hear all the time, “I should be farther ahead, Dr. A. I’m so far behind.”
And I hear that from people at all varying ages too. So in different ways. So
that’s something to absolutely be aware So all or nothing thinking, jumping to
conclusions and should statements that troublesome trifecta where we really our goal
is we want to catch and conquer those so that we can overcome the anxiety and help
ourselves manage our stress more more effectively. So again, we can feel and be our
best.
Bridgett:
You know, another thing that really was important that was in the book and I
was, I was taking notes. So, but it was about relationships with other people And
I’m trying to find my notes, but it was kind of like your list of. I forgot what
you called it, but it was the people that you want to be around. And then the
people that you don’t want was, what was the word for it? Cause I can’t find it
in my notes.
Dr. Mary Anderson:
Easy people, probably easy people,
right? So yes, I always say it’s not about judgment. We’re not here trying to judge
other people. That’s not our job, but it’s about being discerning, right? So having
discernment and having basically an awareness, how do certain people impact your
stress levels, your thoughts, your feelings, your behaviors. So easy people, are those
people you just feel like, you can be yourself around, you know, and you don’t have
to prove anything, you’re never trying to defend yourself around them, and they
inspire you, encourage you, uplift you, or you just feel really relaxed around them,
So that’s easy people. And strategically, we want to maximize how much time
we’re around easy people. Life is hard enough. And there’s enough stressors going on
personally, professionally, and in the world, we need easy people. And that can be
like a close friend, a family member, it could just be a barista at your local
coffee shop that you have like a fun conversation with about sports or, you know,
like local music scene or whatever it is. but just that there’s those people that
you can like, just look forward to running into and having conversations, even if
it’s just someone who’s at your gym, you’re like, “Oh, it’s nice to see you.” You
know how nice that feels when someone says that to us, so we can be that for
someone else. So then the less or uneasy people would be the people who,
you know, you just feel drained and depleted after being in their presence and
you’re like oh man I build them out again kind of or like oh man you know I just
feel like they don’t understand me and it’s like there’s frustration or draining of
energy and also sometimes I’ll find so they’re again thoughts feelings behaviors so
sometimes you leave saying I’m just like not in a great mindset after seeing them
or I’m just feeling depleted or behaviorally when you were with them you engaged in
behaviors you don’t usually. So people say, I find there’s certain friends, Dr. A,
like we just sit around gossip, or like we complain together, or overeat, or gamble,
or more sedentary with, or whatever it is, but there’s behaviorally something. So
again, we’re not blaming anyone else for our own actions, but we’re just keeping an
awareness of, are there certain friends who we, you know,
find we’re doing really healthy behaviors with, and that maybe people that were
around that were kind of, we notice we tend to do less healthy behaviors around and
really using that to our best interest of saying, okay, how do I optimize and try
to minimize or moderate exposure to people who aren’t helping my energy and stress
levels or health behaviors and maximize my time with people who are. And so it’s
really getting strategic, right? Like our time and energy, I feel like for myself as
I’ve grown older, like I’ve really become really clear, really clear that like time
and energy are just important resources. And so getting really strategic,
really mindful, right? Being thoughtful about who do we want to spend our time with.
And again, it’s never about judging other people. It’s just really about honoring
your energy. It’s honoring and protecting your energy so you can be your best out
in the world.
Colleen:
That kind of runs right into the last essential, which is your
legacy, creating your legacy. Can you talk about how we need to really choose wisely
about what we do and who we spend time with and creating a legacy?
Dr. Mary Anderson:
– Yeah,
absolutely. I love talking about this as well is being strategic.
You can use strategic intentional mindful, basically just really being thoughtful about
what you want your life to be about right and having that be based on what you
value and so sometimes I’ll sit with people and say you know what do you value and
it’s okay if it’s hard to identify and you know right off the bat but I’ll have
people think about what are the things that are important to you right is it
justice is it truth is it beauty is it family is it friends is it health is it
continuous learning and growth Is it a spiritual life? Is it, you know, having
adventure in your life and traveling and learning? And so I always say, you are the
expert on you. You’re gonna know what’s important to you. And so I just wanna help
support that. I always tell people, I am with you and for you. I want you to gain
clarity about what you value, what is meaningful, purposeful for you.
And then we’re gonna work together to help you honor that with your daily choices.
And it’s through our daily choices that we create that bigger legacy, right? There’s
this great quote, it’s the best way to take care of the future is to take care of
the present moment. That’s not me, that’s Tick -Not -Hon. That’s Tick -Not -Hon, he was
a Buddhist master, he was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize by Martin Luther King
Jr. So Tick -Not -Hon very wise, man. –
Colleen:
She’s not taking credit for that.
Dr. Mary Anderson:- I am not
taking credit. –
Bridgett:
She’s making it clear,
Dr. Mary Anderson:
I did not I did not write that I’m not
taking credit but I just thought it was so like imbued with wisdom is the best way
to take care of the future is to take care of the present moment so in this
present moment. What is valuable and meaningful to you that you want to put forth
your time and energy that again is so precious it’s so valuable. What do you want
to focus that energy and time and all your resources towards moving forward.
What goals are those? And I love working on that with people as well, because then
they’re setting goals for high achievement that really feel fulfilling to them.
And that’s what’s going to keep us energized. If you’re using your energy towards
meaningful goals, it’s this cool thing that I’ve found. If we use our energy towards
meaningful goals, this cool thing happens. We get re -energized. You know,
if you’re working towards goals that you don’t really care about, like when I’ve
seen people working jobs that they really hate, it’s really tough because they might,
you know, achieve the goals that people are putting forth for them, but they’re not
meaningful or valuable to that person and they feel drained. But if you are doing
work that you are passionate about, like for me, so as an example of myself, I
love helping people. It’s nothing. I feel like friends know my major goal in life
is to help as many people as possible. So I’ll do whatever I need to do to go
try to help as many people as possible. And I have to say, you know, podcasts,
presentation, books, all these things, helping patients, it’s just like re -energizing.
It’s like a boomerang, like the energy fills back up. So it’s like almost like a
secret, like you use up your energy to move that meaningful goal forward. And
because you’re moving forward, this meaningful fulfilling goal, you get re -energized
when you see that it’s out there and helping people. And so it’s just really just
awesome, it’s just this awesome experience of working towards a meaningful goal and
how it will keep you energized for sustainable success. And that’s really one of the
keys of my book is I wanna help people achieve sustainable happiness and success,
You know a momentary achievement, but that drains them and then they burn out,
right?
Bridgett:
And you know another important thing you bring up is You can’t be happy all
the time forever And that that really is something because people put that up on a
pedestal and say my goal is to be happy But if you were at 100 % happy 100 % of
the time That’s just not gonna happen. Could it happen? Could you talk about why
that is really unattainable? –
Dr. Mary Anderson:
Oh, I love this. Thank you so much,
Bridgett. Yes, we got to keep it real. (both laughing) I’m like, we got to be real.
Which happiness is wonderful, but they’ve actually shown in research that if you
really focus on your moment to moment happiness, this interesting thing happens. It’s
inversely related to happiness because what happens is if you’re like, am I happy,
am I happy, I should be happy every second, then it’s going to make you unhappy
’cause you’re gonna think, well, I’m not meeting the happiness goal, but especially
if you’re a high achiever with that all or nothing thinking, you’re telling yourself,
I should be happy all the time, right? And I should wanna be happy all the time
and I should be able to be happy all the time. But what research shows actually is
that doing happiness promoting behaviors is what’s actually associated with more
happiness, right? Because we have control over the behaviors we’re doing. So if we’re
doing happiness -promoting behaviors, like the self -care I talked about, the SELF,
sleep, exercise, look forward, fuel, if we’re cultivating healthy connections by really
prioritizing and maximizing time with easy people who inspire us, uplift us, energize
us, if we’re practicing gratitude, which I love talking about the benefits of
gratitude that we know from abundant research can be really happiness promoting.
That’s what’s going to be most helpful. And so if we’re erroneously believing we
should always be happy in every moment, that’s actually going to detract from our
happiness. And it’s just not the truth, right? I mean, when we look at life, there
are going to be swamps. And I talk about this in a few of the different chapters,
but certainly in essential number five, Transforms Shoulds to Cans, where we’re going
to have what I call swamps of life, moments or time, seasons of kind of
uncertainty, challenges, difficulties, times where we’re like, I never thought this
would happen. I don’t know what comes next, Dr. A. And so in those moments, maybe
after a breakup, or you lose your job, or a loss of a loved one, or moving to a
new city, any change, Even if it’s seemingly a positive change, like you get a
promotion, or when people first have kids or different things, positive stressors, but
there are challenges to navigate. We need to normalize that there are going to be
those challenges in life and then equip people with the tools for how to navigate
those, to help themselves through those moments. I talk about in a Central Five,
EAL, Empathy, Acceptance Optimized. I help people to help them through the
swamp. So check out “Essential Five” if you want to learn more about that site. But
really knowing that we’re going to face challenges in life and that something I tell
my patients all the time and that they’ll nod their head and just be like, oh my
gosh, why is this? It’s some like cosmic consolation prize that through the swamps
of life, that’s where we actually garner knowledge and learning and growth. And
that’s where we gain our courage, I call it earned courage, right? That’s where we
earn our courage. The Disneyland days of life, you know, those days of relaxation
and just doing something fun, those are important. But do we grow our courage on
Disneyland days? No, right? We know through traversing the swamp lands of life,
that’s actually where we’re gonna grow the most. It doesn’t always feel nice. That’s
why they call it growing pains, truly. But I think if we normalize, you’re going to
face swamps in life, but you can do this. And I often tell my patients, you got
this, I believe in you. You’re not alone, we can do this. And so once you
normalize there will be swamps, there are gonna be challenges, there are gonna be
times where you’re like, I don’t know what to do next. And you’re in those moments
of uncertainty that you will make it through those swamps. That’s so important so
that they’re not erroneously believing, well, I’m failing at being happy. And I think
if we hyper focus on this happiness goal of, again, I should be happy every moment,
that’s actually not going to be helpful for people.
Colleen:
That’s a great conversation and
such a great book. Dr. Mary Anderson, thank you so much for coming on to talk
about the Happy High Achiever. We’ll have links in the show notes for the book and
for your website as well, because you have a lot of resources on your website to
talk about, but we really appreciate your time today and for the book.
Dr Mary Anderson:
– Thank you
so much. This was so much fun. And thank you to all the listeners out there. I
hope you enjoy the book. You deserve to take good, good care of yourselves. Take
care, everyone.