Dr. Mary Anderson

Dr. Mary Anderson: EPISODE LINK

THE HAPPY HIGH ACHIEVER: LINK

Transcript:

Colleen:

Welcome back to Hot Flashes and Cool Topics. Today we are going to have a very

interesting conversation about happy high achievers and if you are a high achiever,

you already know you’re one of them. But we have a great conversation with author

Dr. Mary Anderson. She’s a clinical psychologist, and she’s the author of the Happy

High Achiever, Eight Essentials to Overcome Anxiety, Manage Stress, and Energize

Yourself for Success Without Losing Your Edge. Welcome to the show.

Dr. Mary Anderson:

Thank you so much, ladies. I’m so excited and honored to be here with you all today. Hello to

all the listeners out there.

Colleen:

Well, your book is so interesting. Bridgett and I really

enjoyed reading And I think, you know, we’re not going to lie, we see visions of

ourselves in some of the essentials, maybe a little bit. But I wanted to start kind

of right before you go into the eight different essentials and we’ll talk about

those. You talk about optimizing your thoughts for success. And you have like

thoughts, feelings, behavior. Can you talk about that kind of linear relationship?

Dr. Mary Anderson:

Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much. Great, great question. Such an important point is

that our thoughts, feelings and behaviors all directly impact each other. And that’s

so important to understand that relationship because then we can really optimize how

we feel and how we perform, right? And so the approach I use when I’m helping

patients is cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT. It’s empirically supported for the

treatment of anxiety, depression, and what it is is a two -pronged approach. We

really work on optimizing thoughts, so that’s the C, the cognitions of cognitive

behavioral therapy, so we’re optimizing our thoughts and also we’re going to optimize

behaviors, so cognitive behavioral, so the thoughts and the behaviors, and why do we

do that? Because they directly impact how we feel. So if you want to feel better,

you have to work on improving self -talk and self -care. And what I’ve seen with my

high achievers who really struggle with anxiety, chronic stress, self -doubt,

worry, perfectionism, I’m seeing a lot of perfectionism nowadays, is that the ambition

that they have is not the problem. Ambition is great, ambition and drive are great.

The issue is chronic, unhelpful self -talk. So those thoughts, they’re having

chronically unhelpful thoughts. And then in terms of behaviors, there’s this relentless

pace sometimes that high achievers have, a relentless pace where they’re not

implementing healthy self -care behaviors regularly. And that’s what’s contributing to

them feeling so much anxiety, stress, and worry. –

Bridgett:

Right, and you make it a point

in the book that self -care doesn’t necessarily, it doesn’t mean like going to take

a bubble bath or whatever. It’s really taking care of what’s happening to you.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Dr. Mary Anderson:

Absolutely. I love talking about self -care.

And yes, we got to debunk this self -care myth, that it means two hour long,

you know, bubble baths and week -long meditation retreats. And those are great if we

have time for those. But how many of us really have time for that, right? So what

I talk to my high achievers with anxiety, just All of us in general, what we need

to do is prioritize self -care, but in a streamlined way so it feels doable. If we

keep it feeling doable, we’ll keep doing it, right? So what I’ve come up with, and

I talk about in my book, “The Happy High Achiever,” is the four science -based self

-care fundamentals that will give you the best bang for your buck. You’re gonna be

putting time and energy into self -care and you’re feeling overwhelmed, do you have

an overextended schedule? We gotta get really strategic, right? So there’s four self

-care fundamentals and how I help people remember them is with the acronym self. So

it’s S -E -L -F. And I can run through those for you if you want.

– Sure. – Okay, so S is sleep. So sleep, we wanna aim for seven hours or more a

night. As adults, we need seven or more hours a night. And why is that so

important? I think we know how we feel, we’re not getting good sleep. And research

shows chronic lack of rest can really negatively impact things like memory,

concentration, attention. But conversely, if we get good sleep, so again,

that seven hours or more a night, it can really improve things like productivity,

problem solving, memory. So there’s so many benefits to good sleep. So sleep is

essential. Then the E in self -care is exercise. And again, I think we know how

important it is to exercise. Here I like to really highlight that our aim is just

30 minutes or more most days. And I think for high achievers, sometimes we have

this like, go big mentality, you know, this all or nothing kind of thinking that

unfortunately can stymie our progress because I’ll have patients saying well Dr. A I

need to go to the gym you know five days a week and if they only go three they

feel like they failed and then they just stop going to the gym. So if we can keep

it really doable and really highlight the benefits of something like walking I love

to walk and there’s a super low risk of injury with walking and what we know it’s

a really efficient way to metabolize cortisol so cortisol, our stress hormone,

walking, physical activity is one of the most efficient ways to reduce cortisol, so

it’s going to be really effective for preventing and healing burnout. So that’s the

E. L of SELF for self -care is look forward. And this is the one that sometimes

patients and people who have talked to you about the Happy High Cheaper book are

like, wow, I didn’t really think of this as self -care, But the L is look forward

and our goal is to have at least one pleasant activity to look forward to every

week Why is that so important? Because it provides a powerful mood boost when we

have something to look forward to just the anticipation of something positive is

Powerful right think about planning a vacation just thinking about the vacation even

if it’s weeks away Gets you it. So what we have to do is just modify that for

our everyday busy lives and keep it really doable because we can’t go on vacation

every week. It is helpful to know when our next vacation will be, but on the,

you know, the daily or in a week, just have one thing a week that feels doable,

like planning a meetup with a friend or booking a massage. Or for me, sometimes I’m

like, I’m just going to get my favorite takeout on day, night after a long day.

And then in the days leading up to that, remind yourself that you have this great

thing you’re looking forward to. And then it’s like double -meaning for your book,

right? You’ll enjoy the activity when you’re doing it and just when you’re thinking

about it. So that’s the L. And then the last one of SELF is fuel. And this,

again, we really know we got to fuel our body well with good nutrition and

hydration because it really will impact our cognitive performance. And sometimes I’ll

see people just going hours and hours without eating. And I’m like, guys, we got to

help you make healthy eating convenient. So I’m like, keep snacks with you. If

you’re out traveling, bring some mixed nuts, a piece of fruit, a protein bar. So

people, if they’re studying for something, bring it to the library with you. If

you’re at your desk and you’re feeling like you’re swamped with meetings, keep

something convenient right near you. So fuel your body and brain with good nutrition

and hydration. Drinking water really does matter, so I’m like, keep that handy. The

other thing is to fuel your mind with quiet. Think about how much of our day we’re

just bombarded, barraged with information, problems to solve, scrolling on our phones.

If we can just strategically take even a minute or two, more is great, but just a

minute or to each day to do some deep breathing, which I teach to a lot of

patients, to do things like getting out into nature, into green spaces or blue

spaces. So, you know, parks or just your backyard or get near the ocean or rivers.

We know from research it helps calm the nervous system. So just a little bit of a

rest and recharge can make all the difference for our functioning. So again, that’s

SELF, sleep, exercise, look forward and fuel. Those are the four science -based self

-care fundamentals to prioritize, to keep yourself energized so you can move forward

and feel and be your best.

Bridgett:

And what I love about that is that it’s doable.

Like you said, doable. They don’t have to be huge grand gestures, just like you

said. Just like the look forward, getting something to eat or even I’m going to go

make me my cup of coffee and put this special cream at it or whatever. It’s just

yeah very doable.

Dr. Mary Anderson:

Yep and that’s really the crucial part is that we’ve got to keep

it doable and stay flexible with how we implement it. So if someone writes schedules

one pleasant activity that for some reason like it gets rained out or they can’t go

to I really encourage patients adapt as necessary stay flexible with things just plan

something else to do that day that you enjoy. And just like you’re saying, it can

be something little. Like I make sure I have like hand lotion that I like to use

or my little stress management ball that I’m like, okay, I’m gonna make sure that I

plan that in for a day when I like know it’s gonna be a long day of sitting.

I’ll be like, I’m gonna make sure that that’s next to me so that I can use that.

That seems so small, right? But these little moments of self -care, these little

moments, these micro moments of self -care, they add up and the additive effect is

what’s really going to be protective of our energy. I always talk about protector

energy, protector sparkle. You know, we have to protect that energy so that we can

continue to feel and be our best because everybody out there deserves that. We all

deserve to feel and be our best.

Colleen:

We’ve already learned so much and it’s only like

five minutes in, but – I think I skipped a point that I wanted to touch base on.

The book is called “The Happy High Achiever.” How do you know when you’re a high

achiever? Is it, what do you look for and say, “Maybe I meet these requirements,

or maybe I meet these characterizations?”

Dr. Mary Anderson:

– Oh, that is such a good question.

It’s so, oh, such a good question. I actually just did a presentation from my

colleagues about helping anxious high achievers, so high achieving patients with

anxiety. And I started with, how will we know we’re a high achiever, right?

And so this one, here’s some tricky, it’s a little tricky. So when I was talking

about anxious high achievers with clinicians, I was talking to mental health

providers, I said, diagnostically, we know what to listen for for anxiety, right? So

what we’re listening for are things like, you know, I’m really having a lot of

worry about a lot of different things and feeling it difficult to control the worry

and feeling anxious. We know what kind of panic symptoms so forth to. So that we

know. But how do we know that the high achiever part, right? It’s tricky. There’s

complexity because often high achievers don’t come in identifying as high achievers.

Often patients will come in, especially if they’re coming in for therapy. So it’s a

different intensity level, right? If patients are coming in saying I’m really

struggling with anxiety, they will say just that. They know, hey, doctor, I’m really

struggling with anxiety. I’m struggling with worry. So that’s helpful. It helps when

they’re, you know, like coming and identifying it, but they won’t come in saying

they’re high achiever because almost a hallmark of being a high achiever is that

people will point to what they haven’t done or achieved yet. And so that’s the

issue I’m finding is if people are coming in to see me, they’ll say, but you know,

I haven’t made partner at the law firm. So I work with a lot of lawyers, but I

haven’t made partner at the firm or well, I haven’t run a marathon. So they’ll

point to achievements or goals they haven’t yet accomplished. The other thing,

the second thing that I see, kind of there’s two main things, they point to goals

they haven’t achieved yet, or they point to how they don’t measure up against

someone else. They’ll say, but my colleagues have higher titles than I do, you know,

at their company, or they’ll say, well, you know, Dr. A, all my friends are

married, you know, and they they own their own homes, I don’t, I’m not a high

achiever. So they’ll point to ways in which they aren’t a high achiever, rather than

give themselves credit for all the things they’ve done. And I even asked my

colleagues on the presentation. It was a live virtual talk. And I said,

everyone out there said, we’re not going to share answers, you know, but just

reflect for a minute for yourself. Do you consider yourself a high achiever? And

everyone, and I could just see their faces being like, huh, you know, and I said,

by virtue of just being a since mental health professional, we have had to pass a

lot of tests and exams and are through clinical hours and face challenges and

overcome obstacles. And yet I wonder, and there was like hundreds of people on the

call, I’m like, I wonder how many of us out there stopped and thought to ourselves,

well, am I really a high achiever? And really started focusing on ways that we

aren’t. And so that’s something that I encourage them to think about is that people

likely coming in and aren’t going to necessarily identify as that.

So

And so I’ve helped definitely high -achieving, ambitious patients who were first

-generation Americans, hadn’t got their degree, yet they often were in college. So

students would come in and say, “Dr. A, I’m so stressed out.” And they really were

riddled with a lot of anxiety and stuff like that. And they’ll say, “I have so

much pressure on me, Dr. A. “I’m the first person in my family to go to college.”

And sometimes they were at community colleges, state schools, they were at Ivy League

universities, whatever school, it didn’t matter, it was just there was so much

pressure being put on them by their families and by themselves, right? And so what

I encourage people there is to focus on what are the qualities of a high achiever?

What are the traits and the issues that they’ll be dealing with? And so actually in

my book, “The Happy High Achiever,” in the introduction, I have a whole section

called, are you an anxious high achiever? And then I go through a list of some

anxious high achiever qualities to start helping readers know, did you find your way

to the right book? So things like your overwhelmed by self -doubt and your work

-study schedule, you feel massive pressure to keep achieving big and impressive

goals. And there’s a whole list on one page of qualities of high achievers.

And I think that’s really what will help point to is someone a high achiever. And

I encourage people to look at it for themselves because I often say as well, I

wouldn’t be the one to identify is someone a high achiever? Just initially I work

with them and I see how are they thinking about things and how are they looking at

their life and their ambition and their goals and do they feel like they identify

with these qualities and traits. –

Bridgett:

One of the things that, another thing that I love

that you have in your book is when you compare excellence to perfectionism.

Colleen:

– That’s number one, right? –

Bridgett:

That’s just spoke volumes. Can you share the importance

of excellence over perfectionism?

Dr. Mary Anderson:

– Absolutely. And I have to say, I’ve been seeing

more issues around perfectionism now than I have in years. And I’ve been a licensed

clinical psychologist for well over a decade. And especially recently, I’ve just seen

this explosion of issues around anxiety when people are trying to be perfect.

So with perfectionism, what I’m seeing is that patients, people are really tying

their self -worth to their appearance, achievements and performance. And I often

encourage people, if you make your internal worth, beholden into external validation,

you will live with chronic anxiety and worry. So again, if you make your internal

worth, behold into external validation, you will live with chronic anxiety and worry.

And that’s because people are thinking, I have to be perfect or else I’m a failure.

I have to be perfect, or I’m not lovable, worthy, or good enough. And what that

is, it’s all or nothing thinking. So all or nothing thinking is a type of cognitive

distortion. And cognitive distortions, unfortunately, are ubiquitous little beasts. We

all do them as humans, you know? So sometimes high -achievers are like, “I’m doing a

cognitive distortion, a thinking error, like how am I doing that?” We all do that,

right? So the issue is they’re unhelpful that’s originating from erroneous assumptions,

misinterpretations, faulty beliefs, and all or nothing thinking, is this really forcing

a dichotomy where there doesn’t need to be one and it needlessly ratchets up stress

and anxiety. I call it pressure cooker thinking. So perfectionism, what it does

honestly, it just makes people terrified of making mistakes or ever looking less than

the best. and that actually comes, interestingly, it limits high achievers.

So perfectionism limits high achievers and so I’ll often say perfectionism is the

Achilles heel of the ambitious because it’s going to limit people in a variety of

ways. First and foremost, it makes them hold back from trying new things.

Anything they think they’re not going to immediately look adept at or be proficient

at, they won’t even try if they.

If they. If they. If they. If they.

They’re going to hyper -focus on details and minutiae. They’re going to triple -check

things for typos. Sometimes where it’s not really necessary, like it’s an email,

but they’re going to triple -check it. Well, if you’re really busy, you can’t triple

-check every email. We got to learn how to prioritize. But sometimes high achievers,

when they’re really striving for perfection, they’re trying to make every single thing

they do perfect, which leads to the Last way that perfectionism is really not

helpful, what I call perfectionism fueled procrastination. When someone is tasked with

a project, a presentation, anything that’s important to them, they can start thinking

to themselves, what if it’s not as good as I want it to be? What if I don’t get

it right? They’ll say, doctor, this has to be perfect. And so what happens is they

don’t even start ’cause they’re too worried. They’re afraid that it’s not gonna be

good enough. So again, perfectionism really holds people back. They’re terrified of

ever looking less than the best for making mistakes. Now, conversely, excellence.

Excellence allows for both high achievement and our humanity. Excellence keeps our

standards high, right where we like ’em. It’s not about lowering our standards.

And sometimes when I’m working with high achievers, that’s what they’re really worried

about, You’re gonna, you know, do you want me to just be soft and lazy and

acquiesce to mediocrity and stagnation? No, that’s not what we’re talking about. I

swear there’s place for like self -compassion and high achievement. There is a way to

be kind to yourself I mean actually by taking good care of yourself with good self

-care and good self -talk You actually are setting yourself up to succeed and so I

teach them that set your standards high just be aware as humans we are going to

make mistakes and that it’s okay we don’t have to like it but we have to know

that they’re going to happen and that it does not in any way negatively impact our

self -worth that’s really important that they get it that it’s not going to impact

your self -worth that you still are going to have people who value you you’re so

worthy And that actually our mistakes, failures, fumbles, flaws,

we can use those to really learn from and can catapult us actually forward because

we can learn from and use them as content for growth. When we make a mistake or

when we do something less than we wish we could have, we can look at it and say,

“What do I wish I did differently next time?” Not just berate ourselves for not

being perfect.

Colleen:

– As a recovering perfectionist, still.

Bridgett:

(laughing)

Colleen:

– I can’t believe,

you were saying something like, what’s your point, should you not check an email

three times? Is that not a good thing?

But as a recovering perfectionist, I thought it was interesting in the book when you

talk about excellence because I didn’t know, originally, I didn’t know what you meant

by that. And in the book, you say excellence is the pursuit of achievement while

honoring our mental, which is happy and physical, which is healthy well -being. And I

thought that was really clear for people ’cause people are like, okay, well, what’s

the difference between being excellent and being perfect because we’re putting them on

the same platform and you’re really not. So I thought that was a really good

description in the book about that. It kind of hit home a little, maybe Bridgett

would know that.

Bridgett:

Like, ’cause she’s like, I don’t know. – A little bit of a – like

a little bit, but you know, it is, it is interesting because I, the, the whole

procrastination thing really struck with me, like I’m so nervous about how something’s

going to turn out that I, you put it off, you put it off and then you’re rushed

and then it really, it’s not going to be excellent or perfect, you know, it’s, it’s

really going to be a problem.

Dr. Mary Anderson:

And you know, I know you also had the energy and

the curve that you’re invest the ultimate currency, your energy.

Bridgett:

And I know you’ve

touched on that as well. And then you also, I love – – Shoulds and cans. I really

wanted to talk about the – –

Colleen:

Oh, talk about that. – Yeah, the number five essential,

changing your shoulds to cans. Can you talk about that? –

Dr. Mary Anderson:

Yes, absolutely. And I

just have to say, thank you so much, ladies. I love to hear that the content in

the book is really resonating with you and that it’s feeling practical? That’s really

one of my major goals is to provide practical, actionable science -based strategies

and skills. Because when patients come in to see me, they’ll say, “All right, Dr.

A, like, bullet point it for me.” And these are JDs, they’re lawyers, they’re

doctors, they’re researchers, they’re grad students. And so they just need something

practical in their days to help them move forward, right? And so really clear,

concise, practical information. So I’m so glad that it’s resonating with you.

And I love talking about shoulds. Hallmark of high achievers, right? We should all

of ourselves. And there’s three ways that we often should. And I talk about this in

the happy high achiever. We should ourselves. We should others. And we should

situations. So when we should ourselves, right? I should be able to handle this.

I should be doing more. I should, you know, I should be able to keep up. I should

be going to the gym more. All the shoulds, that how does that make us feel right?

So thoughts, feelings, behaviors, they all directly, you know, relate, they all

directly impact each other, right? So thoughts, feelings, behaviors, if we’re thinking,

I should be going to the gym every day, how does it make us feel? not good,

right? Like deficient. We all, we often will feel deflated, actually less motivated.

So paradoxically, the very thing we’re shooting about ourselves about, we’re actually

making it less likely that we’re going to do that very thing, because we’re making

ourselves feel bad, right? We’re going to feel guilty. And when we’re feeling

demotivated, guilty, bad about ourselves, behaviorally, does that move us forward? Not

usually. And not, certainly not sustainably, if we’re not feeling good about

ourselves. So that’s where with the shoulds, I discuss it out with patients.

So if they’re like, oh, Dr. A, I should be going to the gym more. I’ll ask

them, do you want to go to the gym? Do you think it would be helpful? Or do you

think you must? And I love it because my patients are so candid and they’re like,

I definitely don’t want to. I’m like, okay, so it’s something you want to, do you

feel you must? And I’m like, so what is it? And they’re like, well, I just think

it’d be helpful to go to the gym and I’ll say, well, why? Right? So if you stay

curious with why you’re telling yourself a should, that’s what’s gonna actually help

unstick you. The should will just keep people stuck behaviorally and feeling bad

about themselves. So I’ll get, I kind of drill down to like what, why are you

telling yourself this? And they’ll say, well, I think it would be helpful. I know

that exercise helps, you know, you’ve talked about stress management, I know it’s

good for my health, and then we can really get into the nitty -gritty of effective

problem solving and goal setting, and I’ll say, “So what I’m hearing is that you

think it would be helpful to exercise?” And they’re like, “Yeah.” I’m like, “Do you

need to go to the gym to exercise necessarily?” “Well, no.” “All right, so now

we’re getting somewhere.” I’m like, “Well, what could you do? Let’s see.” and so

will brainstorm. And it often is just bring your sneakers to work and go walk for

15, 20 minutes at your lunch break. Or I have a lot of people getting at home gym

equipment but something like a treadmill or even now they have like walking pads,

which is like a treadmill but smaller footprint. So I have people finding ways to

do walking or exercise that’s more convenient. And often high achievers will be like,

but does that count? I don’t, I don’t have to go to the gym. And I’m like, you

really don’t have to go to the gym. And in fact, if you’re not going to the gym,

that’s not actually even a helpful kind of goal to set for yourself, because you’re

not doing it, and you’re just going to feel worse, and you’re going to kind of

feed into that negative feedback loop. So I’ll say, what is it, you know, what do

you feel? What does it sound like to you if you went for a walk twice this week?

Just go for a walk twice this week outside. People say, I can do that. So again,

it’s turning a should of, I should be going to the gym every day, to I can go

for a walk outside twice this week. Yeah, I can do that. And I know, again, for

being a clinician for over a decade, I can tell the difference when someone’s like,

ah, I’ll try that, Dr. A, versus I can do that. So I work with them to get to

the point where they say I can. And sometimes, as high achievers, we think, well,

that’s not enough. And that’s the issue is we’re really overshooting with our goals

and it sets us up to fail. So I’ll encourage patients to identify that all are

nothing thinking and poke holes in it, see why it’s not necessarily true, it’s not

useful for them. And to know with goal setting, a string of single steps completed

is much better than a large leap never taken. So that’s how we turn shoulds to

cans in terms of when we’re shoulding ourselves. And then I also talk about when we

should other people, we usually just end up feeling resentful, which again, thoughts,

feelings, behavior. If we’re thinking to ourselves, he should be taking the trash out

every day. They should be easier to talk to. This should be, they should be doing

this. How are we gonna feel usually resentful, frustrated, and then behaviorally, it’s

not gonna help create optimal interpersonal communication. So there’s definitely ways

that I talk about in my book, how to help ourselves not should  others, ’cause

again, it’s usually just gonna keep us stuck and not feeling good. And I also talk

about in the book, how to overcome shoulding situations when we’re kind of navigating

the challenges or what I call the swamps of life. –

Bridgett:

Yeah, yes, and another one of

yours is number two, is the, Oh, no, it’s number, is it number three? It’s the

uncertainty versus curiosity, which, you know, when we’re uncertain about something and

which we’re gonna face uncertainty all the time. If something’s new to us, we’re

uncertain about it, but I love the whole thing of switching to curiosity instead.

So can you talk a little bit about that?

Dr. Mary Anderson:

– Absolutely. How many of us haven’t just

sat and said like what if this doesn’t work out? What you know like what if they

don’t like me? What if it doesn’t work out?

And and there’s this it sounds simple but just shifting to I wonder so this is a

real concrete strategy when you notice you’re saying what if it doesn’t go well?

What if they don’t like me? I wonder. I wonder what will happen next. I wonder

what they think and just highlighting the fact that can we know what’s going to

happen in the future? No. So that’s always the ace up our sleeve. I tell my

patients, I’m like, this is the ace up your sleeve. If you’re doing what we call

negative fortune telling. So negative fortune telling is another cognitive distortion.

It’s one of what I call the troublesome trifecta. The three most common cognitive

distortions that I’ve found plague high achievers and are real obstacles to excellence

for high achievers. Negative fortune telling is when we are predicting that something

won’t go well, that hasn’t happened yet. And so in that moment, it’s really

important to just raise our awareness. I don’t have all the information yet.

I can’t know what’s gonna happen. And then we move from awareness into action by

saying, what could I focus on? What soft talk could I focus on that would help me

move forward? And again, it can be as simple as going from what if it doesn’t go

well, what if I fail the exam, just shift into I wonder what will happen,

I wonder what’s on the test, like figuring ways out to help yourself move forward

because it’s much more helpful if I’m helping like grad students with their exam,

thinking what if it doesn’t go well and very quickly what if it doesn’t go well,

can very quickly jump to, it’s not going to go well, Dr. A, I’m going to fail

my exam. So instead we shift them to, I wonder what will be on the test. I wonder

if I can have a study group. I wonder, you know, what books I can read or

articles I can read that will help me feel more confident about what’s going to be

on the exam. So we just shift from a what if to I wonder, and just by staying

curious, it can literally free up how we feel. So I often say, Stay curious about

uncertainty and then you can be hopeful about possibility and get excited about

opportunity. And it’s a three step process I talk about in the book to help people

when they’re navigating uncertainty, it can feel really scary and ambiguity can feel

scary to all of us. So knowing how to really help boost our common confidence

during times of ambiguity and uncertainty is such a powerful skill set because

especially in today’s world, we have to know how to face the uncertainty that we

all are facing every day. –

Colleen:

And you talk about the trifecta,

which you said, mind reading, what would be the other two parts of that trifecta?

Dr. Mary Anderson:

– Yes, so the troublesome trifecta, the first one is all or nothing thinking, and we

hit on that one with perfectionism. So all or nothing thinking is forcing a

dichotomy where there isn’t one. So black and white thinking. So things like, I need

to be perfect or I’m a failure. Or something like, if I hear patients say like,

everything, you know, everyone needs to be totally blown away by my project, Dr. A,

you know. So everything, everyone, or in the other direction, no one, always,

never, any of those really extremes, those absolutes, when we’re forcing our thoughts

into absolutes, Almost always, life is not lived in the absolutes. It’s lived more

in the middle, in the gray, right? So all or nothing thinking, absolutely can hinder

high achievers striving for excellence. So all or nothing thinking, the second one of

the troublesome trifecta is the jumping to conclusions. And jumping to conclusions

comes in kind of two flavors. It’s that negative fortune telling. So it’s not gonna

go well, I’m not going to get into the university I want or I’m not going to get

the job I want. And then the other kind of flavor of negative fortune telling is

mind reading. It is that like they’re not going to like me, they’re going to think

I’m incompetent. So that’s the mind reading where we’re assuming we know what other

people are thinking about us, which can we ever know what people are thinking? No,

I often say the only way we know what people are thinking is if they tell us and

they tell us the truth. So That’s the second one is the jumping conclusions. And

then the third one we’ve hit is the should statements. And that, again, just really

makes people feel badly and keeps them stuck behaviorally. So that shoulds.

And I hear all the time, “I should be farther ahead, Dr. A. I’m so far behind.”

And I hear that from people at all varying ages too. So in different ways. So

that’s something to absolutely be aware So all or nothing thinking, jumping to

conclusions and should statements that troublesome trifecta where we really our goal

is we want to catch and conquer those so that we can overcome the anxiety and help

ourselves manage our stress more more effectively. So again, we can feel and be our

best.

Bridgett:

You know, another thing that really was important that was in the book and I

was, I was taking notes. So, but it was about relationships with other people And

I’m trying to find my notes, but it was kind of like your list of. I forgot what

you called it, but it was the people that you want to be around. And then the

people that you don’t want was, what was the word for it? Cause I can’t find it

in my notes.

Dr. Mary Anderson:

Easy people, probably easy people,

right? So yes, I always say it’s not about judgment. We’re not here trying to judge

other people. That’s not our job, but it’s about being discerning, right? So having

discernment and having basically an awareness, how do certain people impact your

stress levels, your thoughts, your feelings, your behaviors. So easy people, are those

people you just feel like, you can be yourself around, you know, and you don’t have

to prove anything, you’re never trying to defend yourself around them, and they

inspire you, encourage you, uplift you, or you just feel really relaxed around them,

So that’s easy people. And strategically, we want to maximize how much time

we’re around easy people. Life is hard enough. And there’s enough stressors going on

personally, professionally, and in the world, we need easy people. And that can be

like a close friend, a family member, it could just be a barista at your local

coffee shop that you have like a fun conversation with about sports or, you know,

like local music scene or whatever it is. but just that there’s those people that

you can like, just look forward to running into and having conversations, even if

it’s just someone who’s at your gym, you’re like, “Oh, it’s nice to see you.” You

know how nice that feels when someone says that to us, so we can be that for

someone else. So then the less or uneasy people would be the people who,

you know, you just feel drained and depleted after being in their presence and

you’re like oh man I build them out again kind of or like oh man you know I just

feel like they don’t understand me and it’s like there’s frustration or draining of

energy and also sometimes I’ll find so they’re again thoughts feelings behaviors so

sometimes you leave saying I’m just like not in a great mindset after seeing them

or I’m just feeling depleted or behaviorally when you were with them you engaged in

behaviors you don’t usually. So people say, I find there’s certain friends, Dr. A,

like we just sit around gossip, or like we complain together, or overeat, or gamble,

or more sedentary with, or whatever it is, but there’s behaviorally something. So

again, we’re not blaming anyone else for our own actions, but we’re just keeping an

awareness of, are there certain friends who we, you know,

find we’re doing really healthy behaviors with, and that maybe people that were

around that were kind of, we notice we tend to do less healthy behaviors around and

really using that to our best interest of saying, okay, how do I optimize and try

to minimize or moderate exposure to people who aren’t helping my energy and stress

levels or health behaviors and maximize my time with people who are. And so it’s

really getting strategic, right? Like our time and energy, I feel like for myself as

I’ve grown older, like I’ve really become really clear, really clear that like time

and energy are just important resources. And so getting really strategic,

really mindful, right? Being thoughtful about who do we want to spend our time with.

And again, it’s never about judging other people. It’s just really about honoring

your energy. It’s honoring and protecting your energy so you can be your best out

in the world.

Colleen:

That kind of runs right into the last essential, which is your

legacy, creating your legacy. Can you talk about how we need to really choose wisely

about what we do and who we spend time with and creating a legacy?

Dr. Mary Anderson:

– Yeah,

absolutely. I love talking about this as well is being strategic.

You can use strategic intentional mindful, basically just really being thoughtful about

what you want your life to be about right and having that be based on what you

value and so sometimes I’ll sit with people and say you know what do you value and

it’s okay if it’s hard to identify and you know right off the bat but I’ll have

people think about what are the things that are important to you right is it

justice is it truth is it beauty is it family is it friends is it health is it

continuous learning and growth Is it a spiritual life? Is it, you know, having

adventure in your life and traveling and learning? And so I always say, you are the

expert on you. You’re gonna know what’s important to you. And so I just wanna help

support that. I always tell people, I am with you and for you. I want you to gain

clarity about what you value, what is meaningful, purposeful for you.

And then we’re gonna work together to help you honor that with your daily choices.

And it’s through our daily choices that we create that bigger legacy, right? There’s

this great quote, it’s the best way to take care of the future is to take care of

the present moment. That’s not me, that’s Tick -Not -Hon. That’s Tick -Not -Hon, he was

a Buddhist master, he was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize by Martin Luther King

Jr. So Tick -Not -Hon very wise, man. –

Colleen:

She’s not taking credit for that.

Dr. Mary Anderson:- I am not

taking credit. –

Bridgett:

She’s making it clear,

Dr. Mary Anderson:

I did not I did not write that I’m not

taking credit but I just thought it was so like imbued with wisdom is the best way

to take care of the future is to take care of the present moment so in this

present moment. What is valuable and meaningful to you that you want to put forth

your time and energy that again is so precious it’s so valuable. What do you want

to focus that energy and time and all your resources towards moving forward.

What goals are those? And I love working on that with people as well, because then

they’re setting goals for high achievement that really feel fulfilling to them.

And that’s what’s going to keep us energized. If you’re using your energy towards

meaningful goals, it’s this cool thing that I’ve found. If we use our energy towards

meaningful goals, this cool thing happens. We get re -energized. You know,

if you’re working towards goals that you don’t really care about, like when I’ve

seen people working jobs that they really hate, it’s really tough because they might,

you know, achieve the goals that people are putting forth for them, but they’re not

meaningful or valuable to that person and they feel drained. But if you are doing

work that you are passionate about, like for me, so as an example of myself, I

love helping people. It’s nothing. I feel like friends know my major goal in life

is to help as many people as possible. So I’ll do whatever I need to do to go

try to help as many people as possible. And I have to say, you know, podcasts,

presentation, books, all these things, helping patients, it’s just like re -energizing.

It’s like a boomerang, like the energy fills back up. So it’s like almost like a

secret, like you use up your energy to move that meaningful goal forward. And

because you’re moving forward, this meaningful fulfilling goal, you get re -energized

when you see that it’s out there and helping people. And so it’s just really just

awesome, it’s just this awesome experience of working towards a meaningful goal and

how it will keep you energized for sustainable success. And that’s really one of the

keys of my book is I wanna help people achieve sustainable happiness and success,

You know a momentary achievement, but that drains them and then they burn out,

right?

Bridgett:

And you know another important thing you bring up is You can’t be happy all

the time forever And that that really is something because people put that up on a

pedestal and say my goal is to be happy But if you were at 100 % happy 100 % of

the time That’s just not gonna happen. Could it happen? Could you talk about why

that is really unattainable? –

Dr. Mary Anderson:

Oh, I love this. Thank you so much,

Bridgett. Yes, we got to keep it real. (both laughing) I’m like, we got to be real.

Which happiness is wonderful, but they’ve actually shown in research that if you

really focus on your moment to moment happiness, this interesting thing happens. It’s

inversely related to happiness because what happens is if you’re like, am I happy,

am I happy, I should be happy every second, then it’s going to make you unhappy

’cause you’re gonna think, well, I’m not meeting the happiness goal, but especially

if you’re a high achiever with that all or nothing thinking, you’re telling yourself,

I should be happy all the time, right? And I should wanna be happy all the time

and I should be able to be happy all the time. But what research shows actually is

that doing happiness promoting behaviors is what’s actually associated with more

happiness, right? Because we have control over the behaviors we’re doing. So if we’re

doing happiness -promoting behaviors, like the self -care I talked about, the SELF,

sleep, exercise, look forward, fuel, if we’re cultivating healthy connections by really

prioritizing and maximizing time with easy people who inspire us, uplift us, energize

us, if we’re practicing gratitude, which I love talking about the benefits of

gratitude that we know from abundant research can be really happiness promoting.

That’s what’s going to be most helpful. And so if we’re erroneously believing we

should always be happy in every moment, that’s actually going to detract from our

happiness. And it’s just not the truth, right? I mean, when we look at life, there

are going to be swamps. And I talk about this in a few of the different chapters,

but certainly in essential number five, Transforms Shoulds to Cans, where we’re going

to have what I call swamps of life, moments or time, seasons of kind of

uncertainty, challenges, difficulties, times where we’re like, I never thought this

would happen. I don’t know what comes next, Dr. A. And so in those moments, maybe

after a breakup, or you lose your job, or a loss of a loved one, or moving to a

new city, any change, Even if it’s seemingly a positive change, like you get a

promotion, or when people first have kids or different things, positive stressors, but

there are challenges to navigate. We need to normalize that there are going to be

those challenges in life and then equip people with the tools for how to navigate

those, to help themselves through those moments. I talk about in a Central Five,

EAL, Empathy, Acceptance Optimized. I help people to help them through the

swamp. So check out “Essential Five” if you want to learn more about that site. But

really knowing that we’re going to face challenges in life and that something I tell

my patients all the time and that they’ll nod their head and just be like, oh my

gosh, why is this? It’s some like cosmic consolation prize that through the swamps

of life, that’s where we actually garner knowledge and learning and growth. And

that’s where we gain our courage, I call it earned courage, right? That’s where we

earn our courage. The Disneyland days of life, you know, those days of relaxation

and just doing something fun, those are important. But do we grow our courage on

Disneyland days? No, right? We know through traversing the swamp lands of life,

that’s actually where we’re gonna grow the most. It doesn’t always feel nice. That’s

why they call it growing pains, truly. But I think if we normalize, you’re going to

face swamps in life, but you can do this. And I often tell my patients, you got

this, I believe in you. You’re not alone, we can do this. And so once you

normalize there will be swamps, there are gonna be challenges, there are gonna be

times where you’re like, I don’t know what to do next. And you’re in those moments

of uncertainty that you will make it through those swamps. That’s so important so

that they’re not erroneously believing, well, I’m failing at being happy. And I think

if we hyper focus on this happiness goal of, again, I should be happy every moment,

that’s actually not going to be helpful for people.

Colleen:

That’s a great conversation and

such a great book. Dr. Mary Anderson, thank you so much for coming on to talk

about the Happy High Achiever. We’ll have links in the show notes for the book and

for your website as well, because you have a lot of resources on your website to

talk about, but we really appreciate your time today and for the book.

Dr Mary Anderson:

– Thank you

so much. This was so much fun. And thank you to all the listeners out there. I

hope you enjoy the book. You deserve to take good, good care of yourselves. Take

care, everyone.

 

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