DEBORAH SANTANA: EPISODE LINK

LOVING THE FIRE: BOOK LINK

TRANSCRIPT:

Bridgett: Welcome back to Hot Flashes and Cool Topics podcast, everybody. I’m so excited today to be joining

Debra Santana. She has written a wonderful book, and it is Loving the Fire,

Choosing Me, Finding Freedom. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Deborah Santana: Thank you so much for having

me.

Bridgett: Well, I was reading your book, and you’ve written another book as well.

And this book, I feel like… many women can relate to this because so many women go through their

lives without even realizing that they are living somebody else’s dream.

And I see behind you have dream written on your wall. And I was just curious as to what made you

decide that I need to be living my dream and not somebody else’s dream.

Deborah Santana: It was really an organic process of growing into myself. I mean,

I think life is just many, many different stages. And I married when I was 22.

So I was just a baby and I was very fond

of supporting others. I was raised really to be a nurturer. It’s just my nature also.

And so going into marriage at that age, I just wanted to do everything I could to be a couple,

to do things together, and then also to support my ex’s career.

So as I grew, and then we had a family after we were married 10 years, and then I was devoted to

our children. And I loved that so much. And of course, like a lot of women, after the children

start growing up, you start looking around and thinking, is this still my identity? Is this still,

am I living my values? Am I living my passions? Or am I living this stage play that I’ve set up?

And that’s really what happened. It was organic.

Bridgett:  And I think it just happens to so many people that

they don’t even know it’s happening while it’s happening to them. And also, you know,

in your book, you include how you were brought up and just it sounds like a really loving

household, your mother and your father. And it was an interracial marriage back in the 40s.

Can you talk about how I mean, reading your book? I realize you include in the book that the state

of California didn’t recognize your parents’ marriage at the time. Can you address that?

Deborah Santana: Yes.

I think that I didn’t know that until I was probably in my 20s. My parents didn’t really talk about

all of the struggles they went through. My mom also was, I think, about 22 when she met my dad.

My dad was 16 years older, and this was his third marriage. So my mom was this bright-eyed,

sweet… loving person who fell in love with this jazz blues musician.

And when they married in 1947, it was still illegal in 17 states in America for persons of

different ethnicities to be legally recognized as husband and wife. And I think that was really

crushing for my mom because they had to go to Seattle, Washington to get married. And yet she was

this, she just was so in love with my dad and he with her that they just started this life and had

us two girls and weathered the storms that came. My mom told us very little about the ostracization

she went through, but she did tell us one story about getting out of a taxi in Chicago with my dad

and getting out and a white man spit on her. So I think that…

She internalized a lot of what they went through, but for her, she had her faith.

And she just continued to pray and make it through and had a beautiful relationship.

My mom and dad were married for, I think, 55 years. I actually haven’t done the math lately.

Bridgett: She sounds like she was such a good example to you and your sister. Just,

I think it’s… Definitely is shown in what you do and what you have done with your life.

Even, you know, even before you went through your divorce and you left your 34-year marriage, you

are already doing so much. I mean, you were a COO. You owned restaurants.

You did things. Do you think that that example from your parents, that just bled through to you?

Deborah: Absolutely. My parents were doers. My dad, of course, was a musician, so he performed in clubs at

night. When we were born, he wasn’t performing with his band as he had when he and my mom met.

And my mom was a worker for Social Security, and she loved going to work every day.

And yet we had this very rich life of trying to support others. We were in Girl Scouts.

We were in music. We started piano and dance and tap dance and ballet,

and we were just doers. And I think that life can either be something that you do or something that

you observe. And we definitely did a lot with our lives.

Bridgett: Yeah. And,

you know, in the book, okay, so I haven’t mentioned who you were married to. You were married to

Carlos Santana, extremely famous musician, and your father also a musician.

You know, that life when you’re 22 years old, I was 23 when I got married.

So I know what you mean, but my husband was 22 as well. So we were both young. But you just don’t

know what’s going to happen in your life. You know, you’re young. You have no idea what the future

is going to hold. And you’re married to this very famous person. And as you grew and you had

children and all the businesses, you worked in his business. you know, you ran the office,

you arranged everything. When did you finally, what I was trying to say is when did you decide that

loving the fire would be a good story to tell and that you were just like,

I need to look for me?

Deborah: I just, there are a couple of things there. So before I met Carlos, I was actually in a

relationship for 19 months with Sly Stone, who was a very, famous rock musician.

And that relationship, I went into completely innocent and not really realizing what that life was,

even though my father told me I was heading for a brick wall, which I write about in Space Between

the Stars. But my parents had also told my sister and me, they had taught us that people do not get

a higher regard or deserve higher regard because they’re famous. Fame is something external.

Character and values are internal. So I didn’t,

I think I was a little more overwhelmed. I was 18 when I met Sly and he kind of swooped down on me

and I was starry-eyed then. When I met Carlos, I was, I had gone through

really seeing kind of the worst of rock and roll and I had completely stopped doing anything that

was illegal. I had only taken drugs a little bit when I was with Sly and I had stopped everything

and I was just on this straight narrow path to becoming who I was going to be.

And when we first met, Carlos was also seeking and we joined a spiritual path with a guru.

So we weren’t really necessarily immersed as much in his world as it would seem because I owned a

vegetarian restaurant, as you mentioned, owned and managed. I was in service every day.

And my friends were either from my high school days or beginning college days,

which I had dropped out of college to travel with Carlos, or they were from the meditation center.

So we had a very pared down existence in terms of what other people might imagine.

And my values were always what my parents had taught me. Keep your life simple,

be devoted to spirit, be kind to others, be as much in service as you can be.

So it took me a while to establish myself and then come to a place where I realized I needed to

walk through the fire.

Bridgett:  And along the way, you have met some really incredible people.

I mean, well, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, you call him Arch, and the book,

The Arch, you went to Nelson Mandela’s cell where he was held prisoner,

and then you met the Dalai Lama. I mean, I’m reading this book just thinking,

oh, my goodness, what a life. But the thing, too, that you do that throughout the whole book,

you don’t just talk the talk, you walk the walk. So can you share?

I mean, that really is inspirational. Reading the book is very inspirational.

I mean, there’s so many things in there I want to talk about, but the school for the girls in

Kenya. Could you share about that? Because there’s something that touched me so much after reading

that chapter. But could you share a little bit about that?

Deborah Santana: Yes, of course. The Daraja Academy.

So I was very fortunate. This happened actually after I went on my own.

It was in 2010 that one of the founders, Jason Doherty,

came to my office and brought his laptop with a video of these girls in Kenya who would not have

been able to attend secondary school without the support of donors. And he showed me the video.

Probably about three years after I’d left my marriage. So I was just looking for things to

participate in and things to support and

belong to a beloved community. So when I saw this video that Jason brought, I just fell in love

with these girls and they were trying to build this new school and they had 26 girls enrolled and

they had traveled all over Kenya to find girls who were not able to attend secondary school.

Because in Kenya, you have to pay for your uniforms and your books. Education is free in most of

the schools, but there are still things you have to pay for. So he and his wife, Jenny Doherty,

had started this school, which had been a dream of Jason since he was a child and his parents had

taken him to Africa. And I just said, I want to go visit. And so within a few months,

I was on campus and meeting the girls and 26 more girls came in.

So when I was there, there were 52 girls. And I listened to their stories, where they came from,

their intensely devotional way of studying. I mean,

I’d never seen really that type of gratitude and faith in education that I saw when I was in Kenya

with these girls. And so I got to know them. I supported some girls to get their educations.

And then when I came back home, I went around and talked about the girls.

My friends Barbara Rick and Jim Anderson, who were filmmakers, to Kenya with me to make a short

documentary film about the school. And then I traveled around and talked to people and tried to get

more people on board to support these beautiful ideals and the school. And now there are 297 girls.

They have built a totally new campus that I haven’t visited yet. That’s what I love about being

committed to helping others and being committed to being alive. It’s just there’s so much richness

and joy.

Bridgett: Right. It was so impressive. And just the way,

 you talked about how they didn’t have electricity, just a generator at night and these

hours where they had the generator. But what really touched me was the pillars. of the school.

And I wrote them down. But it was

 being accountable for the role that you play, neither neglecting or abusing and maintaining open communication, speak honestly and respectfully, embrace differences, treat all with dignity and respect in each

day, leave it better than the day before. 

Those pillars apply to everything. And I mean, I really I was like almost crying.

So I’m sure you’ve probably heard that from people after they’ve read your book that they’re almost

in tears, but tears of kind of tears of joy. They’re sad situations that happen.

But I think the your act of giving. And your act of service to people is very inspiring.

And that was just one that stood out to me. And I felt like there are ways that people could donate

to this school. Of course, yes.

Deborah: You know, one of the things I try to do,

and I actually have, I’ve worked really closely with Jason and Jenny over the years, and now

they’re sort of flying on their own. They don’t need me anymore. One of the things I’m really

fierce about is not creating poverty porn. That’s a part, I say that in my book too,

that’s a huge part of the nonprofit industry where they try to hang someone out who looks very

destitute and dilapidated and so needy to raise funds for something that’s really important.

But these girls are stellar people. They are not, we don’t have to feel sorry for them. Some of

them came from difficult home lives, but each one of them is a star in her own right and doesn’t

make herself a victim. And that’s important to me.

Bridgett: Yeah, I wrote that down,

too, that you didn’t want the colonialism exploitation and the poverty porn because you do see that

like it’s so important when you have a place of privilege to go out and really try to help others.

But it’s not really for you. It’s for them. And it’s just to make the world a better place.

And there’s just so many things that you’ve done. I also wanted to talk about.

the Smithsonian and your work with the Smithsonian. Can you talk a little bit about that? Deborah: Well I’m

so honored to have been involved with the Smithsonian now for gosh I don’t know maybe 14 years.

I was invited to first come and be a part of the Folk Life Festival which happened every summer on

the Washington Mall and being a Californian, I didn’t really travel to DC that much,

especially the richness of the Smithsonian was really introduced to me when I became involved.

So I traveled there and experienced the beautiful mall experience in the summer where

different countries come together and bring their food and their culture and their music and their

art in the circle of all of these Smithsonian museums that are there.

 Then I was asked to join the national board, which was a great

honor. And I got to go behind the scenes at the American Indian Museum,

the Natural History Museum, all of these Smithsonian Institutions where I could be someone who went

in and looked at the exhibits, but seeing behind the scenes was something that I really loved. And

then eventually I became a founding donor of the National Museum of African-American History and

Culture, which is celebrating its 10th anniversary this year. And that was a unique experience

because I really wanted to do that. as a legacy for my family.

And to be involved from the very beginning, wearing a hard hat, seeing the museum before it was

finished, and being in the presence of now Secretary of all the Smithsonian,

Lonnie Bunch, who was in the Executive Director of NAMAC, I just was so lucky to be.

a part of that. And I still am. I’m on the advisory council for NAMAC and I look forward to being,

and now I’m involved also with the undersecretary of education, that department,

which I have six mentees who come every summer to work in different areas of the Smithsonian to

learn and grow.

Bridgett: And that was amazing, too, just finding out the sheer number. You included in the

book the number of people that are involved in the Smithsonian. And they’re so wonderful.

They are free. They are free when you go there. Just the most amazing collections.

Could  you talk about when you went to visit Nelson Mandela’s

cell? Because when I was reading your writing, and you are a gifted writer, of course.

What these people experienced and the things that they had to go through during apartheid.

Can you talk about what that experience was like?

Deborah: We had been involved in the anti-apartheid movement since the 90s.

We had gone to rallies and listened to the leaders from the anti-apartheid movement.

And then I became involved with Artists for New South Africa, which was an organization

of artists and musicians and actors who were to bring down apartheid as much as possible.

So when I became a part of ANSA, which it was called, we traveled,

we were invited to travel to South Africa for Archbishop Tutu’s 75th birthday Gala.

And there were 25 of us on this journey.

And some of them, Alfre and her husband Roderick and Latanya and Sam Jackson and Sharon Gelman,

the executive director, had all met Mandela when he was released from prison. So some of us had not

had that experience. And we were so excited not only to attend Archbishop Tutu’s Gala but

 our group traveled to Robben Island together,

led by Ahmed Katharada, who had been imprisoned on Robben Island with Nelson Mandela. And he gave us

a tour of the island. And then we were able to, which many people go and do this,

but to stand in Mandela’s cell where he was imprisoned for 26 years.

And of course, I write about the injustices and the horrific conditions and the caste system there,

which there it was with. Indians from India and blacks from South Africa so the Indians got to have

long pants and have a teaspoon more of sugar every day and all these very small differences and

then the black prisoners had less than that had short pants and I mean just really the depth of

depravity of the minds of the people who conducted this apartheid system really is something to

study. Because really, there’s a lot of that depravity that’s still going on today,

some of it in our country here. You want to just take away everything for people who don’t look

like us, which is the dominant culture’s way of being superior, I suppose.

But witnessing it on Robben Island,

where Mandela wrote, so much. I mean,

there’s when you get on the ferry to go to Robben Island, there are the there’s a little museum

that has a lot of his writings and the tools they had and the tin plates and just everything.

You can see everything encased in glass. So it’s a history to observe. And we have that here in our

own country. Of course, Bryan Stevenson’s doing that, the Legacy Museum, of all these ways that

people tried to harm other people who were not like them. So being in Robben Island and witnessing

and looking out the window that Mandela could see, almost seeing part of Cape Town where his family

lived. And then also knowing that the integrity and the strength.

that Mandela had to have to stay positive because he had been arrested.

Of course, they were all revolutionaries and he realized that he had to become a leader in a

different way. And just, just experiencing that was transformative.

I mean, you know, when you, I was probably like a teenager, well before, but this was going on.

And even though I knew a little, I really didn’t know the depth of what was happening.

 Of course, I’d heard of Nelson Mandela. Of course I knew

that. But I think about that’s not that long ago. And it still is happening. It still is happening

to other people. And that’s, you know, in the past, Colleen and I didn’t get very political,

but now we kind of feel like we have to.

And you mentioned you were at the Women’s March. I was there. I was at that. And you were

mentioning the subway that day. My mother-in-law and I went. And we got on

the subway in Maryland at College Park. My niece was living there, so we stayed with her. And I was

there on the busiest one. Obama’s inauguration, I was there too. I was like 2009,

the two busiest days of the Washington, D.C.’s subway. But you talk about that,

too. And there are still things that we have to do right now.

You know, it’s kind of unbelievable. I’m in the state of Tennessee and just what has happened

in my state recently with the gerrymandering right now completely breaks my heart.

You know, it’s infuriating. And I was I’m not from the state originally,

but still I’m a voter and I. try to do what I can, but it’s exhausting,

but we have to keep fighting. And that kind of leads me to something else that you do,

the Do a Little. Can you talk about your Do a Little and what that’s all about?

Deborah: Of course.

Well, first of all, I just want to say something about what you just said. You know,

it would be so nice to not be political, wouldn’t it?

Bridgett: Right.

Deborah: And yet,

depending on where you were born, what your station in life is, and what your destiny is really,

there’s something that needs to be changed all the time because people with privilege often do not

have the mindset of wanting others to be equal. So I was born an activist,

of course, through that biracial marriage of my parents, but also by their values and by knowing

the difference between right and wrong and wanting the best for everyone.

So there’s not a day I don’t wake up and find some reason to Do a Little,

which is my nonprofit.

So do a little. I started in 2008.

And it’s something that Archbishop Tutu said,” do your little bit of good wherever you are. It’s those little bits put together that will overwhelm our world.” And I had had the Milagro Foundation

before that with Carlos, which was an organization for children and youth. And when I started Do a

Little, I felt that I wanted to address women and children in the areas of health, education, and

happiness. And happiness may seem unusual to have as a mission statement,

but I feel that it’s really important for me to do work that will create a positive environment for

women and girls. And I also do support young men as well. But my main mission is to try to level

the playing field or offer opportunities to people who have been marginalized by society.

Bridgett: Right. It’s just doing what is the right thing to do. And I’ll never understand,

you know, the older I get, the more I realize. the unfairness that is out there.

And just a big thing for me, like, okay, what’s happening right now? I’m a white woman,

you know, I’m middle class, whatever. And things don’t hurt me personally as much.

However, how can I be okay when there’s people out there that are not okay?

So that was an inspiration. Things that I got from your book and the things that you do,

the service that you do is very inspirational.

Your life before your marriage ended was still was very inspirational.

You did inspirational things there. You have three wonderful children. They sound extremely

talented. But I think that

I feel like more people need to know more about you.

Deborah: You know, I think you’re what is called an ally.

So it’s really important what you’re doing, you know, to recognize what’s unfair,

to try to change that. And by your voting, which is really one of the strongest tools we have in

this country, even though they’re trying to take that away too. But, you know… It’s important.

And I’m so lucky because, yes, my children have,

first of all, they’ve all had different struggles in different ways, which makes them so

compassionate for others. And yet they were also raised to be activists and to make change where

possible. And life brings suffering to so many of us, almost all of us.

I just have in my heart, I can’t just travel around and enjoy my life and be living this glorious

existence and like some people too, taking yacht tours or doing all these different things of

privilege when children are being murdered and starved in Gaza. It just…doesn’t

sit well with me. So over the years when we were really busy, when the children were young and all

of the work I had to do, oh my God, I looked so forward to taking a week in Hawaii and just hanging

out. And now I can’t do that anymore. I think it’s because first of all, I have a much lighter

schedule in a certain way because I’m more in control of my own life, but also because I feel

there’s just so much to do. I almost feel like Miss Rachel For Littles.

I mean, there are so many, like Greta Thunberg. I mean, there are so many people who are working every day to make life better.

And I just want to continue to try to do that in my own life.

Bridgett: Right. And you certainly do.

I mean, this book, you have to read this book, everybody. It’s Loving the Fire,

Choosing Me. Finding freedom. And I before I go, I do want to add to because such an important

thing. A lot of women in this time of life, things change.

Your courage just to do that in this time of life. A lot of people are scared that they

 may want to end their marriage or they just want something to change in what’s going on in

their life. They may have never been married.

You have something at the end of your book. You have some steps. Can you talk about what you have at the end of your book that

is just encouragement for people?

Deborah Santana:  Yes. You know, I had finished my book and completed all the edits

and just felt like there was something missing. So I added these last two pages at the end and it’s

called How to Walk Through Fire. And I just wanted to say that I had to take steps to make it

through. It’s not like it just came easy for me. I actually wanted to leave my marriage 13 years

before I did. And it wasn’t until my mother died that I felt her understand

what I had been experiencing and I felt her kind of put her foot on my back and say go, go and so I

had to make some steps and so the first step I realized that my life was out of balance with my

purpose and because I’ve meditated since I was 21 of course. I sat in meditation and tried to feel

what was out of balance? What wasn’t working? And of course, I knew there was some outer things,

but what wasn’t working inside me to allow me to stay in a marriage 13 years longer than I wanted

to? And then I journaled because I’m also a journaler. And then I did a vision board because I’m

also a collager. And I… of the big things I did when I was trying to make this decision was I

realized who was toxic to my life. And this is something I really want to emphasize for anyone,

because there are people that we keep in our lives that we really actually don’t need to have in

our lives anymore. It’s  mutual.

You know, what worked before, we’re changing, we grow, we change. And then I acknowledged who added

light to my life and brought them closer. So I think that just those few steps bring you closer to

your intentionality and to your essence, which I think the goal of my life is to find more and more

who I really was born to be and to live that out in my daily existence.

Bridgett: You know, those last steps at the end of the book, I think it’s going to resonate with so many

people, especially women who are maybe facing this thing that that people expect what they used to

1. And when women start to say, no, that doesn’t work for me anymore,

a lot of people have trouble with that. Absolutely. Why aren’t you the way you were?

Deborah: Yeah. And I wrote a letter to my children when I first went (left the marriage) and met with each of them.

Two of them were in college. One of them was at home. And I told them that I had decided to leave.

And then I wrote them a letter. And I wrote them a letter thanking them for their part in my life

and giving them courage to also move forward with their lives. And they were such troopers.

I mean, to accept a public breakup like that and go on and be understanding and in harmony with

each of us was quite a challenge. And I’m so grateful for their strength.

Bridgett: Right. I mean,

 people don’t know what it’s like inside of somebody

else’s marriage, even if you are the sibling or the child. I’m from a large family,

12 kids. And yeah, I’m number 11. But I’ve had siblings that have gone through divorces.

And one of them, I remember being really upset about it. But then I have to step back and think,

I’m not in that marriage. I was upset. I was sad. But that wasn’t my life.

And so and that’s a big thing, too, that people I know you mentioned after your mother had passed

away in the book about I had it written down, but about just there was some control.

You couldn’t control the situation. And I think that was something,

too, when my sibling went through that divorce, I thought I had to step back and think. This isn’t

my life. I have no control over this. We have very little control over anything. So,

but we do have some control in what we can do. You’re a perfect example of someone that does

things, what you can do with your do a little and everything. And thank you so much for taking the

time to talk to me today on Hot Flashes and Cold Topics podcast. Could you share how they can find your book?

Deborah: Yes,

thank you. And thank you so much for this time. It’s always a blessing in my life when I can talk

about the wonderful things I’ve experienced and not talk about the bad stuff.

So, yeah, so you can go to my website, DeborahSantana.com, and there are links to different

bookstores where you can purchase my book. And there’s also lots of information and interviews and

different things that you might find more. out that you might want to know about me. Yes.

Well, thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much.