CAROL LIN: EPISODE LINK

BOOK: LINK

TRANSCRIPT:

Colleen: Welcome back to hot flashes and cool topics today we are talking

to Carol Lin who wrote the book When News Breaks: A Memoir of Love and War. When I

started reading this it reminded me of where I was at 9-11 and how traumatizing that was for

each of us. And it’s kind of one of those things in life where we remember where we were at that

exact time. But I also remember watching you on CNN. So it took me back. I’m like, oh, I remember, Carol. I was watching CNN back then.

I wanted to start, your book is great, we’re going to talk so much about your book, but I wanted to

start with that time frame and what it was like for you to be one of the first people on the air

talking about when the first plane hit.

Carol Lin:  Oh, thank you, Colleen. It’s a great question because I

think it reminds people, just like you said, where were they? And I just happened to be anchoring a

morning show at CNN. And it was such a slow news day. That is one of the great ironies.

We remember the bright blue sky over many of our communities. And I remember that the best lead

story that we could come up with that day at 7 a.m., a couple of hours before the attacks.

was whether Michael Jordan was returning to the NBA. And I know for sports fans, that’s huge, big

news. But the second story in was the renovation of the Capitol building.

And that’s not important. But, you know, at the time, CNN was at a really important inflection

point. It was facing much more competition.

Fox News and MSNBC were nipping at the heels, and the morning show is what establishes the

audience. That’s why it’s such an important time slot for most of the networks. So we were fighting

for our jobs, you know, and my memory of that day, and I write about some of these details in the

one chapter specifically about 9-11 in When News Breaks, and it is just all these considerations

that I think we professional women, and you guys know this too, All the things that we think about

that maybe the men in our lives don’t. Like, what was I wearing that day and how unsuitable the

color was and my appearance in the mirror and how I was going to be judged on such an important day

in my career. And those are the things, that’s how it kind of started. And then everything

changed at about shortly before 8:49. So the first attack was around 8:46 a.m.

American Flight, I think it was American Flight 11, had plowed into the North Tower of the World

Trade Center. And during, I was in a commercial break about to interview author Amy Tan about her

new cartoon series on PBS. And this executive runs behind me in the newsroom.

And I just want to emphasize, nobody runs in the CNN newsroom. It is, you could hear a pin drop.

War could break out and you’d hear a pin drop. Breaking news is what CNN does. So I said,

what’s going on? And she said, We have a report of a plane crashing into the World Trade Center.

And I thought, OK, we’re about to go into breaking news coverage. And sure enough, the producer

gets in my ear. She says, get back to the anchor set. I was in one of those remote positions in the

newsroom. And I ran back there and saw the image that you guys saw, that first full screen of the

North Tower of the World Trade Center on fire. And we come at a commercial break.

I hear the breaking news. music, of the animation, and then full screen.

I’m not on camera. You see what I see. And we don’t know what’s happened. So,

you know, it’s an incredible moment when you’re with the audience in the unknown.

And I feel a responsibility. I felt a responsibility to get this right. And my first thought,

ladies, was don’t say anything stupid, right? I mean, be careful what you say.

And I think it’s those iconic words, this just in, is what makes that particular clip so historic.

Because, of course, we didn’t know we were the first to be on the air, and that wasn’t the point.

But it’s been seen in Hollywood movies and documentaries. Almost every anniversary that clip airs,

and I think it’s because how that moment is introduced to the audience.

Bridgett: Right.

And like you said, even though it wasn’t as important to you, but you were the first national news

person to break that news. And anyone that was alive at that time,

we’ve talked about it before, we know where we were when we heard the news that this happened.

And you’re talking about, too, how you wanted to do it right, not to say something stupid.

I wonder, how did your body feel? I can’t imagine. the adrenaline that had to be going through you?

Carol Lin: You know, the adrenaline is what we’re used to at that point. And I don’t want to be one of those,

oh, I’m so cool because I’m not, you know, it’s a very human moment,

but I think it’s, you know, you go to law school because one day you’re going to be standing in

front of a client or a courtroom and you’ve got to hold that moment and people have to be confident

in you and all your training,

goes into that moment. All your life experience goes into that moment. And I think that’s what

happens. And just like an individual, like being that lawyer in the courtroom,

you’re only as good as the team around you, the people who supported the research and coached you

through your opening statement. And news is very much a team sport. So yes, there was adrenaline,

but there was a lot of confidence and trust in the team around me.

The editors at the international desk were to my immediate right. The national desk was behind me.

The show team is in my ear. And I know what they’re going to do because this is how we approach

breaking news. They’re going to get me interviews. I’ve got to tap dance up until that point,

but they’re going to make sure that they’ve got my back. I’m just a vehicle for…

you know, this news organization, this incredible news gathering that’s happening around me. And I

think without that team, then it is terrifying, right? It’s all or nothing and it’s on you.

And how are you going to know anything without your team? And that’s one of my, you know,

that’s one of my most endearing memories is that feeling of the newsroom has got me,

you know. I don’t have anything to be afraid of, except, I’ve just got to hold the moment

and keep my wits about me and do what I’ve done before. You know, you guys have been in that

situation. Even with your kids. I mean, there are moments, you know,

there’s breaking news. We have to remain calm. You’ve got to be their go-to.

You’ve got to be the calm in their storm. And, you know, because they’re trusting you to guide

them.

Bridgett: Exactly. And you’ve been in situations. Before that,

in your book, you include like the crosshairs, this chapter on when you went to Kosovo.

I mean, my adrenaline was going up reading those chapters because I’ve never been in a situation quite like that.

Carol Lin: Oh, Bridgett,

I feel like we all have. So, you know, you’re talking about the first chapter,

which. I have to respect the reader and what they’re expecting, you know, because the story is,

When News Breaks is really so personal. It’s not about the industry itself.

It’s really about my relationship with my husband, a fellow journalist, and the decisions we make

in our relationship and our marriage against the backdrop of this demanding career. But see,

you know, when I was writing, I was recounting those moments. And in chapter one,

we’re standing in the crosshairs. But I talk about what it’s like to be a woman who’s 40,

the height of her career, making a certain amount of money where it’s not that people are cheering

for me, they’re questioning what I’m worth. Is she worth it? Every time I have to negotiate my

contract, it’s what is she worth? What does she give in return? And I think…

All we women feel that way. We feel that way regardless of what career we’re in.

And so I think if there’s adrenaline, it’s this search for that level of confidence and identity

where we can say to ourselves, you know, I’ve done it before. I can do it again.

That’s always been my cheer mantra whenever I find myself in these situations.

Done this before. I can do it again. And so, you know, that’s what I really hope for the reader

experience is that you see yourself in those pages.

Colleen: Well, it definitely is a whirlwind in the book.

You’re very personal about your relationships. You write beautifully about your experiences in

other countries and the dangers that you’re in. And I wonder, you know, what you do write about

being personally involved with, you know, life or death situations. But when you’re sitting at that

anchor desk and you are listening to the constant changing on 9-11 about one plane hits, another

plane hits, plane just went down in Pennsylvania, how are you assimilating all that to make sense

because we couldn’t, I mean the viewer, we were like are we at war? What’s happening? Get our kids,

how did you process that to have it make sense because you guys made us feel like okay. Carol Lin: We’re

getting this in small bites. We’re understanding it yeah. I think it’s how we create

authenticity with our viewers. So I think that’s what you’re doing that with your podcast is you’re

creating an honest conversation. And I think there’s no more an honest conversation with the viewer

than breaking news. I think the difference is, you know, we talk a lot about who do you trust

today? But back then, you know, I think there were established channels for better or worse.

And you go to your established channel, you go to your trusted anchor or your trusted news source,

and you count on them. And I remember all of us at CNN felt, and felt not just with 9-11,

but with all the other stories that we’ve covered, the weight of responsibility to the audience.

And so, you know, I think that it’s exactly that.

It’s thinking about being more measured. That what you don’t say is as important as what you do

say. And there’s an editing process. So when there’s breaking news,

as you’ve described, there isn’t this, you can’t afford this broad level of thinking of,

oh my gosh, what’s happening? You go to your training.

So the training is, all right. This just in, this is what you’re looking at. This is what we’re

doing right now to bring you more information, that level of transparency. And then, you know,

counting on your team. So what they do, the first priority is to get people on the phone who are

eyewitnesses to whatever happened. And the first person that got on the phone with me was a Turner

executive up in New York who had a line of sight to the north tower and saw it in the middle of a

meeting. They heard the roar of the plane and they looked up and they looked out of the window and

they saw the passenger jet crash into the world trade center and that’s how we learned it was a

passenger jet. So even then I was incredulous. Like I repeated it back to him, “a commercial airliner, a

passenger jet,” and he said “yes”. He had no doubt about what he saw and so it’s just beat by beat. It’s

like Legos. You just keep building towards something that becomes the picture of what’s actually

happening. And it was that second plane that hit that I think really sealed it in our minds that

this was terrorism. Up until the point, I think most of us were internally thinking pilot error.

We weren’t reporting that because we didn’t know.

Bridgett: Exactly. I know in your book, you mentioned at first, you thought it was a small plane. And when I

first heard the news, I was a teacher at the time. I was teaching kindergarten. I had no TV on.

Actually, my class was going to the bathroom and the custodian walked by and told me and  the other

kindergarten teacher.  And I’m thinking, well, back in the 1940s,

a plane hit the Empire State Building. So that was going through my mind. And I had an assistant

and she kept coming back and reporting to me kind of quietly because I had

 two students that’s parents were pilots. And I had one that both of her parents were

pilots and the other one, her father was a pilot and we were keeping it from the children.

We felt like this was something that their parents needed to talk to them about. I just remember looking at her and just saying, “Hey, are your parents working today?” She said,  “My daddy is, but my mommy’s not.” And I’m like, okay. And, but everything was good with them,

but it was just that feeling. But I know when you said when it was a passenger

jet and just everything that kept coming after that. And then trying to keep the calm in this classroom, you know,

a classroom of  five-year-old was.

Carol Lin:  So you’re sorting, right? And you’re trying to respond to the

situation. I’ve also interviewed a first grader,

she was in first grade on 9-11. And she has that memory. They actually put the televisions on.

she talked about as a first grader

how she was processing. She didn’t really understand what she was seeing and then later

of course people were recounting family people were recounting families and in her case she

later discovered that her aunt was on flight 93 which had crashed in Shanksville, Pennsylvania. So

here she, her memory as an adult woman is of being six years old and not only watching the attacks,

but learning that she had a personal connection, that her family suffered a loss in these terror

strikes. But see, that’s fascinating. And it’s even more interesting because you have the context

of time when you look back at how you were, right? Right, right.

Colleen:  Everybody remembers where they

were on 9-11.

Bridgett & Carol Lin:  Where were you?

Colleen: I was actually at a PTA meeting and my mother called

me and said, a plane just hit the tower. And all I remember is I was so upset because she had

called and I forgot to turn my phone off. And then I just heard ring, ring, ring, ring,

ring, ring. And I heard all of (the phones ringing), and everyone just got up. And I just, I remember thinking I’ve got

to get to my kids. I had a preschooler and I think a first grader. And I just remember

calling my husband saying, OK, you get one, I’ll get the other because you just didn’t know what

was happening. I remember watching the Challenger when I was in college.

I was at Emory and I remember just going, what just happened?

You don’t even realize what’s happening. And at the time, I don’t think the newscasters realized the extent of it. And so it’s those moments. And I know you talk about the Rodney King riots. Was that your kind of first foray into actually being at the scene of something

that memorable, that emotional?

Carol Lin: I wish I could say yes, but I think the answer is no, because I also covered the San Francisco

earthquake. The locals in the Bay Area call it the Loma Prieta earthquake because that’s where it

originated from in the mountains. That was the first major large scale story.

So for those who don’t remember back in the 80s, it was an earthquake that the shaking lasted

almost 30 seconds because I was actually doing an interview at the moment the earthquake struck.

So when I counted in the edit bay how many seconds the shaking lasted that’s how long

it lasted, and the San Francisco and  the Oakland Bay Bridge collapsed. A section of it had collapsed and

the marina district, the buildings had collapsed because those buildings are built on

sand and water there was something called liquefaction that we learned a lot about, but the

devastation was from north of San Francisco all the way to San Jose and beyond. That was the first time that I’d covered a story of that, of that scale. But each one is unique.

And the Rodney King, you know, Colleen, you’re talking about the Rodney King case. And I was on that as well.

Bridgett: You know, how you all were just getting away, like in a car.

Colleen: Oh, yeah. Just getting away from that, that, that, that kind of child with the gun.

Carol Lin: Yes. The only time that I’ve actually been shot at. So in that case,

it was definitely a first. And yeah, it was, he must’ve been 10. He was so small and holding a gun pointed at us, probably a 22 caliber. Hearing the thud of the bullet hit the SUV.

And that is also the first time that, I mean, I’d covered the gang wars, but usually it’s in the

aftermath. So most of the time. reporters arrive in the aftermath and there’s a sense of it’s

almost like a bubble because you have first responders there you feel a little safer you set up the

 the command post has been set up by the authorities you’re usually reporting in a more

contained situation but when the riots broke out and they sent me to the corner well they sent me

to South Central Los Angeles and we ended up driving through the intersection of Florence and

Normandy which is where those iconic first images, those helicopter shots of rioters and a truck

driver being dragged out of his vehicle and beaten within an inch of his life in that intersection

on live TV. All of that was beginning to unfold. And we had just happened to drive through that

intersection when the chaos broke out. So this is the verdict after the police officers,

the LAPD officers were acquitted in the criminal trial.

Bridgett:  Now,

another one that I was enthralled with was when you went to meet the warlord and that situation.

Can you share a little bit about that situation?

Carol Lin: Yeah. And this is, this is, these are the kinds of

stories that just made my mom crazy.

Bridgett:  I’m sure you talk about that in the book.

Carol Lin: So you’re talking

about post 9-11, CNN assigns me to go to the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan.

And one of the great experiences of reporting for CNN International is that you have a lot of

latitude in finding stories. So we knew that there were a lot of guarantees being exchanged between

the U.S. and the Pakistani government about how secure the border was with Afghanistan.

But then we learned that there are these tribes that actually are autonomous, autonomously rule

along the border. So how can the Pakistani government give those guarantees when they themselves

don’t even control the border? So, you know, seeing is believing. We wanted to go and meet,

see the tribal areas and see what that looked like. And our fixer, our translator had a

relationship with this tribal chief. And the reason why we could go is because he was

 educated, Oxford educated in England before his father, the tribal chief,

was assassinated. And he came back to rule the tribe that lives by seventh century law.

But he speaks the Queen’s English. So he agreed to host us because he watched CNN.

He had a satellite dish on his house and he thought it’d be a kick just to have us and especially

to have a woman. So because he had lived in the West, he understood how it was to interact with

females in a public setting. But the entire week that I lived with the Bukti tribe, I did not see

one adult female ever because they are kept behind closed doors. So I was invited to meet with the

chief at his tribal Jirga. That’s like the big city council meeting where they were making these

life or death decisions. And his tribesmen, his elders were not happy that I was there because a

woman has never sat at their Jirga. But this tribal chief had a sense of humor.

And then he knew that we wanted to see their legal system at work. And so he’s he invited me to see

how it worked. And there was a man accused in a murder for hire scheme. You have a choice in the

tribe whether to go to a trial, literally a court side style trial.

but they have a 99% conviction rate. Or you can take your chances and let Allah decide by walking

through over a trench of hot coals. And if your feet burn, you are considered to be innocent.

And I thought, well, of course they’re going to burn because you’re walking over a 12 foot long

trench of red hot coals, but not always apparently. So we went to go see that.

They walked me around the corner and. Literally, ladies, off to the side,

they’re sacrificing two baby goats and taking their blood as part of the sacrifice,

waving laurel leaves or the equivalent, these palm-like fronds over this trench to stoke the fire.

And then there’s this man they carry and they drop him down on this trench and they’re praying and

there’s chanting. And it’s like, boom, boom, boom. And then they catch him at the end and dump his

feet in a bowl of water, sizzling. And I think, surely, his feet are going to blister.

But they brought him in later at dinner. And sure enough, they did. And he was pronounced guilty.

And his sentence by the tribal chief was to allow the family he had victimized to determine his

fate. So I said, why doesn’t he just run? Why doesn’t he just run into the desert? Because the

chief said, you are nothing without your tribe. You know, he will die. A rival tribe will kill him

or he’ll just die from starvation and, you know, dehydration. So you’re nothing without your tribe.

And the message of that, as sexy a story as that is, but the message to me at the time was,

who was my tribe? What is it that you’re willing to live for or the idea of what your

life is supposed to be like and what are you willing to sacrifice? And for my family and for my

marriage, you know, it spoke volumes of whether I was going to stay with the man I deeply

loved or whether I was going to allow the things that had happened between us or to us or by us

take me away, you know, and who was my tribe? I worked all the time.

I left all the time. So that’s why I felt it important to include that story.

Because, you know, later in the book, his words would come back

 to remind me of what’s important.

Colleen: Well, if we can take a moment to talk about Will,

your first husband. He was in a similar career path that you were in.

He did more Documentary films. But how was it to have a partner who

understood the ups and downs of this type of career. And he wasn’t necessarily chasing the same

dream that you were, but it was the same field. What was it like having a partner like that?

Carol Lin: It was great. You know, our love language was journalism. My publisher, actually, who was my editor, she actually noted when I included letters early in our relationship that we had written to each

other back in the day, ladies, how romantic.

Bridgett: Not a text.

Carol Lin: Not a text,

right, exactly. No emojis. So we wrote letters. It was a crazy meet cute in Iowa on the campaign trail. And, you know, this metaphor being seen through the gaze of others,

especially men in our male dominated industry. And here I meet this older newsman. who takes an interest in the fact that I’m interested in becoming a reporter and we ourselves are also having this kinetic connection on the road and in this case what happened on the

road didn’t stay on the road it blossomed into this incredible kind of love that

you find early in your 20s. You know, you’re young and dumb and hopeful,

vicious, all of that. And, you know, it’s, it’s kind of strange telling this story post me too,

right? Because we met, it was a professional environment, but I was 26,

27. So not a complete novice. He was 37. And, but yeah,

journalism was very much a part of our love story. And the metaphors that we would use in our love letters were you know, rooted in the news. So even when we were talking about loving each other,

we used the language of our profession. And I didn’t even realize that until she pointed that out.

She goes, oh my God, your work and your love story are so intertwined. So yeah, I think it’s

important that I was with someone who knew that leaving was part of my life and it

always would be. And I would leave without notice. And as we discovered in the book,

anything can happen and you can love someone. But I think when that love isn’t completely rooted in

a whole life, like I had different memories than he did because I was gone so much.

So I didn’t go to the weddings or the birthday parties or remember when our neighbor renovated their house and why it was so important to them or the baby that was coming. I didn’t have any of those memories. And so, you know, on the one hand,

to have a partner who understands why that is. But on the other hand, I think it prevented me from being a whole person. You know, I think it’s a movie night and carpool and life with kids and being

present with your friends. I didn’t have any of that, nor did I being raised by Chinese immigrant parents was ever socialized that way when I was a kid so I think that maturing and that deeper understanding of what’s important in life or those it’s the smaller moments they’re not small, they’re actually big because today, I remember pizza movie night! I remember watching many, many ,many

times.

I remember how um what’s that Jamie Lee Curtis movie where they,

Bridgett: was it Freaky Friday?

Carol Lin: Freaky Friday.

Colleen: I’m like, Manic Monday?

Carol Lin: So 20 some odd years later, Devil Wears Prada comes out, you know, and my daughter and I have this

shared language because this is what we watched, you know, umpteen pizza movie nights on Friday nights. So I mixed that in because, you know, I don’t want people to come to my story with this expectation. that so many current female journalists are out there just kicking ass, right?

And it’s all about the career, the whole story. And it’s fascinating to read their memoirs.

But to read When News Breaks is really about, like in my writing program,

they said, have a big question. You center your story around a big question.  It’s why we love who we love and when, if ever, is the right time to let go.

You know, of the people or things that no longer serve. And maybe that sounds very self-centered.

Memoir is self-centered, but it’s only a value if you, the reader, get something out of it,

if you see yourself in the story.

Bridgett:  Exactly. I mean, there’s so many things that you touch on,

just being a mother. And I know that maybe that wasn’t always part of your decision that you wanted

to be. That’s not something that you’ve, you know, felt from like when you were younger,

that this was what was going to happen, but you did become a mother. And

when you became a mother came with the diagnosis of Will’s cancer and also losing him.

And how old was Chloe when you lost Will?

Carol Lin: She was she 10 weeks

Bridgett: oh, my, I couldn’t, I couldn’t remember as months or weeks, weeks old. And That is just a situation many,

most people don’t walk through that situation. And then you also,

I’m going back to when you said your tribe, you figured out who your tribe was, but it took a while

to get that in place. Can you talk a little bit about that? I don’t want you to have to give the whole book

away, but just the situations that happened during that time.

Carol Lin: You know, anyone who’s gone through grief understands that it’s complicated and it’s not always

sad. Sometimes it’s bizarre. Sometimes it’s funny.

So having said that, you know, I went from this world of men in broadcast journalism to this world

of women because I was a widowed single mother. OK,

and I have this baby. It’s one of my favorite chapters. And I talk about

the first time I go to “Mommy and Me.” And the icebreaker question was,

what’s the worst thing that’s happened to you since the birth of your child? Or the hardest thing.

What’s the hardest thing that’s ever happened to you since the birth of your child? And, you know.

These women are just so legit, like, you know,” no sex”, “no sleep”, “no food”,

all these things that are so relatable. And I think I described it like a nuclear clock because I

was trying to debate what I was going to say. And I decided, you know,

I want to tell the truth. I want to make friends. I want to see how I’m going to be received.

And so it was like a nuclear clock ticking down each mom until it got to be. And then I said,

“well, you know, the hardest thing is that my husband died of cancer and I have a decision whether

to go back to work. I’m an anchor at CNN and I’m thinking of that asking them for an assignment in

the Middle East”, and this group of women who’s just like you could hear a pin drop it was just oh my

gosh. It was like I dropped a big f-bomb in front of the babies! And  I remembered

this mom who, and I call her Lisa in the book, who grabbed my arm and, you know, everybody else was

in their Lululemons looking so incredible. And it was this beach community where women feel a lot

of pressure, I think, to look a certain way. But Lisa was in a big shirt just like me.

And she helped me get my diaper bag on my shoulder. And I was gathering Chloe up, who was still

wrapped in her, you know, hospital blanket, because I hadn’t unpacked all the lovely gifts. And I

just needed to get out of there. But Lisa had said to me, “Hermosa Valley Park, two o’clock every

afternoon, come if you can” and that as you guys know is like after nap and it’s those kind of dead

hours in the afternoon as you’re marching towards dinner bath and bedtime and that’s

that invitation. It took me a while to take her up on it because I had to live through you know the career part of it but ultimately that was just something that I came back to at the end of the book because It was in so many ways how real life begins,

you know, with other moms and your kids and just hanging out and passing the time and feeling the breeze and making sure your baby doesn’t eat sand. These become the really important things.

And yeah, sounds so sexy that you can go and cover wars and riots and breaking news and anchor a

morning show. These are the moments that carry through that. I mean,

my daughter to this day sent me an Instagram post that reminded her of her bedtime stories that we used to share. She’s 23. And so she doesn’t know me from before. She only knows the woman who

showed up, you know, her mom just stuck it out through all the sick nights and,

you know, bedtime stories and all of that.

Colleen: That kind of makes me think about the fact that,

you know, when you were wanting to be a journalist and wanting to get on the news and you had to really fight a lot of myths about women in that in that area.

And you were constantly kind of saying, well, I have to say I’m confident and strong because these

 

 men otherwise are going to think I can’t do this job. And then you go over to the Mommy and Me’s

and you have all these women dressed in their Lulu’s saying, my life is so great. And did you feel the

pressure of, wait a second, do I have to now live up to what they’re doing? And it’s kind of the

same idea, but different places. Did you notice that when you were doing it?

How did you feel about that?

Carol Lin:  I didn’t notice it. It’s one of those things, just like how big a

story 9-11 is. We don’t really know until we get to hindsight. Colleen,

I think what you’re talking about is this, I think I’m going to overgeneralize,

but I’m going to say that we girls, we women, we females create a lot of mythology in our mind.

Wherever that comes from is debatable, whether it’s how we’re socialized growing up or the

signaling that we get in the workplace when we’re trying to make our way with the boys

or social media today or advertising, whatever it is. But I think we allow ourselves to play a part

in this mythology. It’s very hard for, it was hard for me to really be clear about who I am or who

I was supposed to be because I had so much strong signaling from the time I was little.

So my immigrant parents, even they couldn’t agree how Americanized I should be. My one parent

wanted me to speak perfect English. Another parent wanted me to socialize myself to the Asian kid

stereotype, be good at math, go into engineering, seek security, get married, settle down. So mixed

signals from the very start. And then in television, it wasn’t that long ago that women were not, that we could even legally have our own credit card or that it was common to see women reporting

the news. And even a network like CNN, I remember it was a few years ago where I thought,

where did all the women go? Because I think Erin Burnett was the only female I saw there. And it’s

like, what happened to all the women? Because they were all male hosts and anchors. There was just

this season. And CNN had always been so diversified that it was stark to me for a period of time

under that particular management. I think we just get all this signaling in our lives.

And it’s, I think we just have to throw down the gauntlet and say, you know what, this is my time.

This is me time. I’m going to figure out a way to define myself because it will never end. People are constantly trying to tell us what they think we should be. It’s a lot more magnified when

you’re on television and they’re so whatever, when they meet you, they’re so either disappointed or

elated. And then they feel the the freedom to have commentary. “Oh, you’re, you’re so much shorter.”

“You’re so much prettier on camera.” You’re so, you know, it’s like, Hey, you know,

when you’re living life out of sequence, because things happen. So when you’re a single widowed

mother with a baby and you’re the only one at the sandbox who doesn’t have a partner in her life

and people can’t accept that. Um, even from when I was growing up in the industry for 10 years,

I mean, I was at Good Morning America as a national correspondent and people still thought I was

Connie Chung. So I’ve had a life.

Bridgett: Oh my goodness, in the book,

I was like, oh my goodness, people still think she’s Connie Chong. What is happening?

Carol Lin: They want what they want, you know, like you’re blonde. Yeah,

like, oh, well, go ahead. Tell me.

Bridgett:  Look, it’s Gwyneth Paltrow right here.

Carol Lin: You know,

you’re supposed to be like Gwyneth Paltrow. Yeah, yeah.

Colleen: you know, you were mentioning

that, you know, we do think in our 20s and 30s that we, if we’re whatever career we choose,

we have to almost work harder than the men in that career to prove ourselves. But Bridgett and I,

I always talk about how with age comes that kind of release of having to prove yourself of what

others think about you. And did you find that start to happen more when you had the baby or as you

started to get a little older?

Carol Lin:  Older. Yeah. And that is, you know, getting older is really awesome

because it’s liberating. And I think, you know, I believe in all those things,

self-care, keep yourself relevant, current, you know, take care of yourself.

But it’s true. You know, Jane Fonda once said that “women’s voices,

our voices get deeper as we get older.” And she thinks that comes with gravitas.

So it’s not the biological changes that are occurring that change our fill in the blank,

but it is literally the confidence in the gravitas and our voice just naturally drops.

Because I remember. I remember early on, if I needed the attention of a male crew or male producer,

sometimes I had to use the high voice. “Hi,”you know, you come into a meeting.

“Hi, how are you?” Just to soften the entrance. Why do we do that? You know,

because we, to some degree, we have to. The first point of entry is to meet someone’s expectations.

Like somebody, a president of CNN once said to me, “Carol, you just got these dimples and,

you know, you just, you walk in, you smile, you got these dimples and then your mouth opens and

then you say something so unexpected, it’s off-putting to the person. And then right away,

they’re, you know, they’re going to have an issue with you.” And I’m like, I mean, you can have an

opinion about an executive,something like that for a female employee. But my point being that

his point is, even when I walked into the room, Carol, you can’t,

you’re the anchor. So what you say matters. So when you tell the desk assistant that no,

that particular task could have been done better, your attitude, the attitude you bring to that

conversation is going to impact that person. But it’s like, yeah, but if I was Don Lemon or Rick Sanchez would that be the case? Did they have to soften the request too?

And after a while, I think it’s now, it’s just more like, okay, I can recognize that sometimes I

can be intimidating because I do have confidence and that I just need to acknowledge that it’s more helpful If I meet someone’s initial expectation or defy expectation,

like they think, oh, she probably thinks she’s all that. And then I come in with the high voice and a more gentle way of entering the room and then build to the build to a more confident.

Bridgett: but just like you said (in the book), your wardrobe, like what you’re wearing.

I feel like women are so much, they’re scrutinized so much more, especially on TV. I mean,

we’ve heard from different people. I know Ginger Zee, we’ve had her on and the amount of,

of things that are written to these women about their appearances.

 People would be telling her she was ugly. And I’m like, What,  people are

telling Ginger Zeeshe’s ugly  Are you, are you kidding me? You know, but it’s, that’s not only

I hear about that from all these other people that are on television, the negative things that are said to them about their appearance, whereas you do not hear that as often about men, about their

appearance.

Carol Lin: Yeah. So, you know, I think Taylor Swift, you know, you wonder why Gen X and.

boomer moms and grandma just love her because we’re of a generation that remembers the overt sexism. Maybe that’s coming back to you.

Colleen: Do you think that if you were a

newscaster now, it seems like news every two seconds is not small news like you had a quiet day.

It’s constant, whether it’s a Supreme Court ruling, whether it’s what the president says or should

never say. It’s just constant. bombs being dropped. What would that be like for you?

Because I can’t imagine how exhausting it must be for the newscasters that are on today.

Carol Lin: I think it’s exciting for the journalists because it’s news. I mean,

I think that we have, we’re at a time where history, where there are people in power who are trying

to rewrite history. They’re trying to not only make history. but they’re actually trying to rewrite

history. They want to change the way we understand our country and who we are and what we believe

in and what is our constitution, what rights are actually protected under the constitution,

what is the rule of law. And so, yeah, it feels like, I mean, it’s a war out there in terms of the

war of information, but the battlefront, there’s so much at stake. on both sides.

So I’m not saying either side is right. I’m saying that our country is being tested.

We are being tested. And I think, you know, somebody recently asked me about,

what do you consider the most trustworthy source of news?

Is there one today? And I said, no, because people now have the option of being drawn to a channel

that aligns with their current opinion. So they’re not going to grow necessarily.

They’re going to be affirmed. So people are seeking sources of information that affirm their

current beliefs. How do you grow from that? You only become more locked into the belief system you

already have. So how do you encourage curiosity? How do you encourage more stories?  60 Minutes put a panel of people together, ordinary folks, and I do this with air quotes, in a town.

They’re all friends, but they’re on opposite sides of the political spectrum. And in 2016,

when Donald Trump was the first elected president, they put these people in the room where they

could talk about these issues openly. And this group continued to meet throughout the years to

share their thoughts and opinions. And then CNN revisited them again in 2020.

And none of them changed. It’s not as if. I think that that’s so marvelous to have that

conversation and to be able to understand. We need to understand why people are so angry.

They’re angry. They feel denied. And that’s where journalism can really,

really matter.

So the internet has democratized information. We get to talk because of the internet.

I get to meet you guys and listen to your podcast because of the internet. But I think what you’re

asking is, how much is too much? And I think probably, right. And,

you know, the people who don’t want us to have a democracy don’t want us to meet at the table and

have those conversations. They want us to feel overwhelmed. And I think we just need to be more

selective.

By selective, I mean, look at the other channels, see how they’re reporting the same story,

approach it with a sense of awe and curiosity, which is what I think a journalist should do in any

circumstance without judgment. Like what’s going on here and why? And why do they feel the way they

feel? Why do I feel the way I feel? How do I know? And then I think that’s a lot healthier than

just saying, well, they’re wrong. So that’s how I try to approach current events.

Otherwise, I’ll just be twisted every single day in a big fat knot.

Bridgett: Are you still teaching courses? Are you still teaching journalism?

Carol Lin:  USC asked me back, but I live now in the middle of the Pacific in Hawaii.

So, you know, I was trying to think of different ways of how I could go back and maybe teach a

semester. It’s such a grand and gratifying experience. And I haven’t been able to work it so that

it really works well. But I do teach in my writing program. I continue to teach about strategic

communications and stuff we’re talking about. How do we connect?

How do we communicate better?  I’m more in this author’s world now. So,

um, trying to help authors through my own book promotion activities,

what works, what doesn’t work.  Hopefully you guys think this is a good interview because I do

talk to them about, you know, how to, how to approach people who are podcasters,

just how to try to relax into your story. Um, cause I think you guys just want a good conversation.

Colleen: And that’s exactly it’s exact. It’s when it flows, when it’s easy,

then you know that the conversation and usually that’s when we hear from listeners. Wow. That was really impactful for me. I learned a lot about that. And I would also ask you about your Sub Stack

because you have some writing on Sub Stack.

Carol Lin: Thank you. Thank you. So,

oh gosh, like the world needs another sub stack, right?

Okay. So. The book is called When News Breaks, but the idea behind When News Breaks to me is

there’s the moment right before and then there’s everything that happens after. So like,

let’s take midnight as an example. There’s midnight, but there’s 11:59. And I’ve always been

interested in how we look at that moment and then what happens after. So to answer your question,

thank you for listening. The Substack is called When News Breaks. And I have been soliciting

people’s short essays on where they were. Two questions. Where were you on 9-11?

And how did that event shape you in the years to come? And oh,

my goodness, I didn’t know what I was going to get. But I’ve heard from. a former army interrogator

who on that day was actually working for a company to help Muslim clients get medical care in the

United States. And he had to find a safe passage back for them to their country because there were

so many attacks on Muslim and Muslim appearing individuals after the attacks. I heard from a woman,

she was ice skating. She was a professional ice skater and she was ice skating on the day of 9-11

at an ice rink that would become a city morgue. because that’s how many, you know,

bodies they were expecting. And how 25 years later that the shock of that day and all that she

witnessed had gifted her this resilience that she’s using to face her,

the care of her husband, who’s facing a critical surgery, that first grader.

We get to hear from a woman today who is recalling her memory as a first grader,

not only watching the attacks, but learning that they lost a loved one in one of the attacks.

I am helping to edit a man from Afghanistan.

He actually was a fixer, had worked with the US military, obviously was in Afghanistan on the day

of the attack, but felt this need. to serve. So he volunteered to become a paid translator and work

with the U.S. military, but was left behind in that well-documented evacuation of Afghanistan.

So many of the Afghanis who had helped our country were left behind facing a death sentence under

the Taliban. And it was… His military handlers who came back to the United States were so

devastated that they had left this family behind that marshaled an army of resources,

if you will, and managed to get that family out. I cannot publish under his name because he still

has family in Afghanistan. But he tells the story from the point of view of an Afghan man who

wanted to help Americans rebuild his country. So you never know until you ask.

I’m sure you guys have the same experience.

Bridgett:  Yes, definitely. But it does sound fascinating.

Colleen: It does. Yeah, definitely recommend that our listeners go over and check that out as well.

Carol Lin, thank you so much for coming on today. Really, the book is so interesting. It’s so personal,

but yet so many experiences are relatable that we went through that you talk about in your career.

So thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate it.

Carol Lin: My pleasure. You guys are great. Thanks for

what you’re doing and giving voice