SHELLING EMLING: EPISODE LINK
THE ETHEL: WEBSITE LINK
TRANSCRIPT:
Colleen: Welcome back to Hot Flashes and Cool Topics podcast today.
We are welcoming Shelley Emling to the show. Hi, Shelley.
Shelley: Hi. So nice to be here. Thank you.
Colleen: Well, we were really looking forward
to this conversation because one of the things, we’ve been doing this podcast for
five years, over five years. And one of the things we consistently hear from women
is that it’s hard to make friends and I feel invisible. And those two things seem
to resonate in a lot of the conversations. And so we were excited when we were
contacted about the Ethel, which is the new group for women 55 plus, and you’re in
charge of it. So could you tell us a little bit how it was created and why you
felt the need for it?
Shelley: – Yeah, so it all started in, during the pandemic in 2020,
we launched a weekly, a free weekly e -newsletter called the Ethel for women, mostly
55, 60 plus. And it’s named after Dr. Ethel Percy Andrews who founded AARP in 1958.
And it was all about the newsletter, it was all about breaking stereotypes around
aging and also helping women live their best lives as they grow older. So alongside
the Facebook, I mean, alongside the newsletter in 2020, I launched a public Facebook
page for the Eiffel. And then after about a year or two, I noticed that the women
wanted a safer space where they could express themselves. So in about two and a
half years ago, we launched the Ethel Circle, which is a closed Facebook group for
women, 55, 60 and older. And the Ethel Circle as a closed Facebook group allows the
women to post their own, put up their own posts. They’re not just reacting to my
posts. And there’s no men allowed and they could talk about anything they wanna talk
about and they do. And from the beginning, they talked about everything from I lost
my best friend last year, so I have no friends left, to my husband thinks I look
old and fat and I haven’t had sex in 10 years, to just about everything. So that
went on and what I noticed almost immediately was that all these women, mostly 60
plus, were looking for three things. They were looking for purpose, people and play.
And many of them were retired. Many had lost their spouses or never been married.
They were esstranged from their kids. They had downsized to a new city and didn’t know
anybody. And they were starting to like to meet up organically within the Ethel Circle
Close Facebook group. Somebody would raise their hand and say, I live in Cincinnati.
Does anybody else live in Cincinnati? Can we meet for a coffee Saturday? And so it
was like, it was just unbelievable. I said, wow, this is, I’m hearing that women
are lonely, especially after 60 and that they really want to meet other older women.
And that’s why about just over a year ago, we launched this Ethel Gathering Groups
Program through which we set up close Facebook groups in states and cities around
the country. And we’ve done that in 47 states now and also DC.
And through those closed Ethel gathering group, Facebook groups, women are actually
organizing events and they’re meeting up and many are saying they’re making their
first new friend in decades. So it’s been very rewarding.
Bridgett: Why do you think it’s so
hard for them to, I mean, I know for me how it’s hard, but what have you found
to be the hardest thing that women say when they hit this age to make friends?
Shelley: I just think it’s a Combo of things I think the pandemic hurt quite a bit. I’ll just
say that but I also think that a lot of women were, either lost their spouses, a lot
of women in their 60s and 70s and they were really part of a couple and you know
they were friends with other couple friends and then when their husband died,
they didn’t really know which way to turn and also I think it’s a lot of women
taking retirement in their 60s early 70s and they thought they’d still be meeting up
with friends at work or something. That just didn’t quite happen that way. And
I’m also surprised at the number of older women who are estranged from their grown
children. This has really shocked me that a lot of these women, their 60s, 70s, 80s
do not really have a relationship with their grown kids. I have three kids in their
20s. And so I can’t imagine, but that does happen. And so they just feel
increasingly alone.
Issues, some, you know, have issues driving, you know, all sorts of things. So it’s
sort of a combo. I’ve noticed it’s just everything. But I have to say, I’ve been
most surprised since launching this whole Ethel movement, how lonely a lot of women
over the age of 60 really are. And if you recall in 2023, the Surgeon General
actually issued a statement saying that in the United States, social isolation and
loneliness is a national epidemic and it’s really true.
Bridgett: It really is. Right. We’ve
talked to several people, especially the one that stands out, Dan Buettner, talking
about community being so important in a healthy longevity.
Shelley: It is. And also, I mean, the Surgeon General has said and studies have shown that being socially isolated can actually cut 15 years off your life and being lonely is like
the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day. So it’s a real issue.
And I’ve seen it firsthand day in and day out. You have no ideas of stories.
I’ve heard from these women trying to make friends, yeah.
Colleen: – How do you think the
role of the COVID pandemic played into the isolation?
Shelley: – I think that a sum of,
that’s hard to say, but I think some of the women took it as a chance to
disengage because they were already a little bit disengaged. And they thought,
okay, now we’ve got the pandemic as an excuse. I’ve heard this from my own friends
saying, okay, Saturday night, I don’t have to go out anymore. This is great, I can
just be alone. And at the beginning, that was kind of fun. You didn’t have to
answer everything, you could stay home on a Friday and Saturday night and not feel weird
about it or guilty about it. Then after the pandemic went on for two years. I
think towards the end of it, people were like, okay, I have forgotten how to really
talk to people. I don’t talk on the phone with anybody. We do Zoom calls every
once in a while, but we’re not really getting together anymore. And I think it took
its toll over the course of the two years of the pandemic.
Colleen: – Yeah, yeah,
absolutely. I think one of the things that really interested me was, you know, it’s
a 55 plus, 60 plus community. And when we started our podcast, we were both 52 and
the main topic everyone wanted to talk about was menopause because it was hitting
that kind of conversation, explosion. And now everybody’s talking about menopause, but
now that we’re on the other side of it and we’re both 57, I kind of want to talk
about other things now. And I looked at your website and I really liked the fact that there’s Topics on everything from
relationships to travel to you know, what you want to wear next like it’s very
diverse Yeah, that was intentional correct
Shelley: Yes, many of our writers for the Ethel
newsletter are in their 70s and 80s Lots of them in their 80s and they’re trying
to find their voice They’re trying to find purpose in their 80s and what I love
about these women is that we’re trying to help them. I have one writer who did,
she was, I think she’s 84, 85, and she did stand up comedy for the first time in
her 80s. And she said, I just wanted to have some fun for the first time in
decades. And I love that about these women. I think women, as they reach, you know,
my age in the 50s, early 60s on up, you do start to feel invisible a little bit.
And you’re trying to figure out how and how to get your mojo back, how to have
some fun again. And I love that a lot of these women are stepping their toes back
into the dating world. Some of them are trying online dating after losing their
spouse and being widowed for a couple of many years. And we’re all about trying to
help women be fulfiledl , just to have fun again and really find your people.
And it takes a lot to step outside your comfort zone. This is the other thing that
I’ve learned. These Ethel gathering groups. So, you know, groups are meeting up in
47 states and I have one in my local area about a year and a half ago. I, we
relocated to the Catskills in New York State and I didn’t know anybody up here. So
I joined my local Ethel group and I’ve organized a few lunches and you go to these
lunches and you walk it, you have to get out of your car of the parking lot and
you have to walk into the restaurant. And it’s kind of scary the first time because
you’re like, is anybody gonna show up? How am I gonna find these people? What’s it
gonna be like? Are they gonna like me? And so I hear from women every day saying,
okay, that was stepping outside my comfort zone. That was a baby step, going into a
restaurant or a diner or meeting somebody for lunch. And then they go from there
and then they start meeting up for a book club or to go on a hike. And it’s just
like we’re trying to push them forward to just step outside their comfort zone.
Bridgett: – Right, you know, you’re talking about that, stepping outside the comfort zone. Have
you found that any women have tried something completely new? Like you’re talking
about the state of comedian. Is there just things where people are just like, I’ve
never thought I’d do this?
Shelley: – Yeah, I would say the one big thing is that we also
have an Ethel on the Go, closed Facebook group for women over 60 that it’s all
about travel. And a lot of these women, many of them widowed again are never
married and they have never traveled by themselves before. So I can’t tell you
probably every day somebody contacts me and says, because of this group and the
support of the people in this group, I am taking my first solo trip overseas. I’ve
never been to Europe. I just booked a trip to London for the first time. I’m going
by myself. And then hundreds of comments will come in and be like, good for you.
Okay, this is what you should see when you go. This is fantastic. So I think
that’s what I hear the most is that women are pushing themselves to actually take a
trip by themselves. And it doesn’t have to be overseas. It can be to, you know, go
to Savannah for the weekend. I mean, this is like, I’ve never done this before
without my spouse or a partner. This is so new to me, and they’re doing it. And
that’s what’s so exciting, you know?
Bridgett: – And what I also like about the Ethel site
is, I love the rules. It’s like, no judgment, you know, I think that’s
great because sometimes, sadly, you get in groups and it doesn’t have to be
particularly female, it could be male or female. And then the backbiting starts. And
so I kind of, how is that difficult to monitor?
Shelley: – I’m not going to sugarcoat it for you. No, it’s been very, very difficult
since November, since the election. I suppose all of our choice groups, there’s no
politics allowed, no self -promotional posts, and no meanness,
no bullying. We have these rules for a reason. And since the election, it’s been
very difficult to keep politics out of these closed groups. But I say that there’s
other groups out there where they do talk about politics. So go find those groups
because I just can’t allow anything, any post to go up that’s going to, the
comments are going to turn divisive and mean. And I just, I want this to be a
nice space for older women to talk about other things besides politics.
Bridgett: Yes, I I understand.
No, it’s, we have a private Facebook group of our own and it’s true, you have to
constantly monitor ’cause even in the comments section, you have to know what they’re
saying.
Colleen: Was this, did the Ethel, was it a natural progression from the girlfriend
newsletter, which is more of like a 40 plus? – Yeah, that’s where we started first
at AARP. The first thing that I launched, we launched was The Girlfriend, another
weekly free newsletter for women in their 40s and 50s and that launched in 2017.
And that was a way to subtly introduce women, younger women to AARP and what AARP
has to offer. And then we launched a public Girlfriend Facebook page alongside that
in 2017. And then in 2019, I believe it was, then I launched the Girlfriend Book
Club, which is a closed Facebook group, just for women who love to read. And that’s
been a fantastically safe, wonderful face where nobody gets political. It’s all about
books and we bring we pick a book every single month and then I bring on the
author and we’ve had everybody from Kristen Hannah to James Patterson to Leanne
Moriarty to Barbara Kingsolver you know Anne Patchett everybody’s been on with me
every month doing live interviews and then we give away a lot of books publishers
come to us and say “hey can we give away 50 copies of this book that’s coming out
you know in a few weeks “ and we do that and that’s been a really fun and it has
over about 105 over 105 ,000 women in it currently in the girlfriend book club and
so when that launched yes, we did realize that there was a need to address the
older women out there and they were saying hey I’m 75 what do you have for me I
can’t belong to the girlfriend community you know, what do you have going on for me
and so we decided to launch the Ethel newsletter in 2020, and that’s what started
this whole thing with the Ethel Circle and all the close Facebook groups around the
country.
Colleen: And you said you’re in 47 states, is that right?
Shelley: Yes, the Ethel Gathering
groups are in 47 states. If you go to aarp.org /ethels,
you can find out where, if there’s a group in your area. And like I said, I think
we still need a group in Alaska, I want to say Montana and North Dakota,
but I think that’s about it. If there’s not a group in your area,
we can help you set up a close Facebook group for your area so you could start
meeting up in person. And it’s been interesting, ’cause talking about loneliness,
what I found right through the main close Facebook group, the Ethel Circle, is that
I heard from so many women that they’re lonely on the weekends especially. They’re
really lonely on Saturday nights, it seems. And so we launched a chat room within
the Ethel Circle just for Saturday nights that if you’re online, you can
just dip in and out like from six to 10 p .m. And you can go in the chat room
and just say, “Hey, I’m watching this great movie. Has anybody seen this?” or
whatever. And it was just interesting to me how many women were willing to tell me
and tell everybody, “You I’m really lonely on Friday and Saturday night or my
down times. That’s really when I am suffering during the day I can kind of keep
busy, but at night I need something I need people to check in on me or I need to
check in on somebody I need some connection on a week at night, and I find
that a lot of women feel that way. So that’s what we’re trying to address that.
Colleen: do you find a lot of the women who were in the workforce for many many years and
then retired Feel the need to do like mentoring in the circle?
Shelley: Yeah,
so we’re trying to do that. We’re trying to if somebody’s very savvy for example
with Canva or some of the social media tools that are out there
We’re trying to pair them up with some other women that don’t really know anything
about social media and how to use it to try to make sure that we can find mentors
for these women because That gives people purpose, women purpose, you know,
which they don’t, they feel like they’ve lost after retiring in some cases, not
every case, but in some cases. And as I said earlier, I mean, what the common
denominator is among all these women in my mind is that they’re all seeking one of
these things, purpose, people or play. And in some cases, all three. And so we’re
trying to do everything we can to help them find people, purpose and play. And
there’s many women also that live in rural areas that are tough to reach.
And if they’ve lost their spouse in particular, they’re living in a rural area
that’s, and they don’t have an Ethel group in their town or city. And so we’re
trying to find a way to do virtual happy hours or virtual Zoom calls or something
where we can engage those women. Because I do feel badly that there are women out
there that are really isolated in these towns which might not have a local,
anything, a senior center, I mean, anything for them in their region.
Bridgett: – Right, and
so when, I know AARP is so good about when you hit 50, you get that thing in the
mail. Does that go, I mean, and you know what, it is a great resource, it is, I
mean.
Shelley:- Most people I have to admit throw that card away.
Bridgett:- I know, I didn’t, I
didn’t throw it away.
Colleen:- I like the discounts
Bridget: I wasn’t gonna throw it away. And I like
the newsletters. I like and it really has stuff in it that is very helpful. I mean
just everything from insurance to looking out for scams to everything. So everybody
with AARP, when they turn 50, how do they find your turning 50 and send this in
the mail? How does that work?
Shelley: I honestly don’t know that.
Bridgett: I’m like, how does they know?
Shelley: I don’t know. But, you know, I always find that. You don’t have to be 50 to join
AARP and that is a that’s a myth. I mean you could be 21 and join AARP
You do not have to be 50. They do start targeting you at 50 because that’s when
they lobby Congress. You know, they’re lobbying for you for the rights of
people 50 plus and so but you can be 21 and join AARP and get the Discounts the
hotel travel flight, you know all those discounts and everything
Colleen: So that was my
question is how can women find out about the Ethel Gathering Groups?
Shelley: – So if they just go to aarp.org /ethels, then you’ll see everything about the
Gathering Groups. There’s a dropdown menu you can put in your state and you can
find a group if there’s a group in your area. And there’s pretty much, there’s
groups now everywhere. So, you know, and even Facebook told us that they had never
seen anybody use Facebook in this way because we started out completely digital. I
mean, online 100 % and the women wanted to meet each other in person.
So it’s not like AARP said, okay, we want to start some sort of initiative to
bring you together in person. The women said, we’re doing this ourselves. And we
just kind of followed them and caught up with them because they told us we want to
meet in person. And we said, okay, All right, then I had no idea. Let’s start
creating groups in cities around the country through which women can meet up. So
we’re following their lead. So it’s been a learning process. And there’s been some
great stories about, there was a woman in Atlanta who posted, I don’t know, several
months ago, who said, “I’m turning 70. “I’m celebrating my birthday alone yet again.”
And she said, “It just so sad that I’m this age and like I’ve lost, she lost
friends. They had died and different things had happened. And she said, I just feel
so sad. I’m sitting here on my 70th birthday and immediately she has over 900
comments come in and people were saying, where are you in Atlanta? I will stop by
DM me. I will stop by with a cupcake, a card or something. And then the next day
she posted and said, I’m sitting here with tears streaming down my face because
nobody has ever celebrated my birthday like this before. So it’s these little
connections every day that are so key to women as they age. And it’s just,
it’s amazing to watch actually. –
Colleen: There’s, it’s definitely magical. I think when you
have a community and a connection and we say that a lot, why do you think,
because we’ve talked to platforms where the engagement simply is not there. Why do
you think women of our demographic crave that engagement so much?
Shelley: Well, I’d say are those platforms Facebook because the closed Facebook platform works
because I have to approve every single person that joins a closed Facebook group. So
that means I’m not letting in men, for example, no men are allowed in these groups.
I’m making sure that people have an actual profile. They have a face. They have a,
You know, they didn’t just join Facebook yesterday and have one friend. I mean,
that’s a tell. That’s something’s off there So, you know, I have to admit everybody
in there. So the women do know it’s a safe space for them and I just think also
AARP is a trusted brand and so they think okay, this is coming from something I
know that was founded in 1958 and You know, I’ll trust it. And so that’s why you
know. And also, women in the Ethel Circle, they can post anonymously,
but I have to approve those posts. And so, a lot of people say, “Why do you allow
anonymous posts? And aren’t they from just spammers or bots or something?” And I’m
like, “No.” When they request an anonymous post, I look to make sure it’s tied to
an actual profile. A woman is actually writing this, And there’s many reasons for
doing that. And I get it because women are writing very, very personal things. You
know, my husband just cheated on me and we’ve been married 30 years. Here’s what’s
going on. What should I do? Or, you know, I haven’t spoken to my sister in 40
years. And I get it. I understand why people want to post anonymously occasionally.
So we do allow that as well. And that is a lot of work.
Colleen: I was going to say, are
you ever off your phone?
our Facebook group is
a lot, but I hope you have support with that
Shelley: yes, because a lot of people sometimes cross
a line and try to give like medical advice or
you can ask somebody, Hey, I’m going through something, you know, I was just
diagnosed with breast cancer. Has anybody else been diagnosed with breast cancer? It’s
okay to share like your experiences with it, but we can’t allow somebody to say,
“Here’s the drug you should be taking. That is not allowed.” So, yes, I do have
some support that helped me admin these groups because it’s a lot, as you guys know
just from doing your own thing.
Bridgett: Yes. Oh, it’s true. Yeah. And you get a weekly
newsletter as well, correct, for the Ethel?
Shelley: For the girls on the Ethel, yeah. Both
have weekly, free newsletters, yeah.
Colleen: Which just are chock -full of resources as well,
like there’s so many good blogs and articles. How do you choose which ones go into
the newsletters?
Shelley:- I think the ones that work the best are the specific headline
ones and the very, very personal essays. So what works best,
and maybe you guys find this in your work, I don’t know what works best is not 25
things to do this week to get more energy. it’s here’s the one thing I did this
week that made boosted my energy this weekend or the three things I did this week
to have the best sex of my life this weekend I mean it’s those kinds of
stories that really pinpoint like one or two things you can do in your life to
make a change and then it’s the very, very personal pieces also about you know I
was ghosted by my best friend, I’m you know, what happened, those kinds of pieces,
but also celebratory. I don’t want to make it seem like everything’s dismal and
dreary because it’s also like, here’s what I did last week, just step outside my
comfort zone. Maybe you could do the same thing. So I’m pretty picky about what we
put into the newsletter and the writers are, I think I’ve got a nice table now for
both The Girlfriend and Ethel that are very, very good and very strong and they
know what kind of pieces we’re looking for. I mean, we also do some service pieces,
you know, 10 ways to do grownup eyeshadow, right? Or something like that, you know,
or 10 films every over 60 women should be watching right now or TV shows you
should be streaming. So, uh, yeah, it’s a combo of the service pieces and the first
person essays, but I do love the very deeply personal first person essays. They
really resonate. If someone is listening to this and saying, “Oh, wow, I’m really
interested.” And they look it up and there’s not a local one near them. Maybe it’s
three hours away. What can they do to start one or to get in touch with you to
talk about it? – If you search on the Ethel on Google, you will find everything
that you need. You’ll find the email address. You’ll find like the links to the
Ethel gathering groups. You’ll find everything. So yeah, aarpethel @aarp .org is the
email address AARP Ethel @AARP .org. -AARP Ethel @AARP .org. If you email that email address, somebody
from the group will get back to you and say, okay, there’s not a group in your
area. We will help you set up a group in your area. Yeah. That’s all
you have to do. And I promise somebody will get back to you within 24 hours for
sure.
Colleen: – Yes. So I guess my last question is where next, like what are you
hoping is the growth going to look like for the Ethel?
Shelley: The growth is,
gosh, it’s just been so amazing already, but we also have just launched an Ethel
store because the people, the women identify as Ethels because Dr. Ethel Percy
Andrews who founded AARP was such a special woman and fought for the rights of
women over 50, and everybody over 60, 50, 60. And so we have an Ethel store where you
can buy Ethel t -shirts and visors and water bottles and tote bags and pins and
everything. And so that just launched last week. And so we’re helping people. So
when you walk into a restaurant and you find, you’re trying to find your Ethel
group, maybe somebody has like a lapel pin that says Ethel or a t -shirt and you’re
like, oh yeah, that’s the Ethel group. Okay, I can find them. But I think in the
future, we’re gonna try to figure out, we wanna get to all 50 states. Like I said,
we’re at 47. We wanna get to 50. And we have been asked many, many times, “What
are we doing for men?” I will say.
And me not being a man, but being married to a man, I’m not sure how the close
Facebook group will would work for men. And if they would react the same
way like the women in the Ethel Circle did and start meeting up in person, I don’t
know, but we’re actually thinking about that because we do want to do something for
the men because I mean men are lonely too as they age, not just women. And the
other thing we’re doing is we’re launching, so the younger women in their 40s, early
50s, look at the Ethel Circle, which maybe their mother belongs to, and they’re
meeting up and going on hikes and going to plays and having fun. And they’re
saying, “Hey, What about us? So around May 15th, we’re launching the Girlfriend
Social Club, which will be a new closed Facebook group for women in their 40s and
50s, similar to the Apple Circle where they can talk about anything. And I’m going
to lean into the lighthearted because I think that everything is so heavy right now
that a lot of people have told me, thank you for not including politics and all
these groups. We want like an escape for an hour a day so we can come onto the
Ethel Circle Facebook page and think about something other than politics. And we’re
gonna do that with The Girlfriend and have a Girlfriend’s Social Club closed Facebook
group in addition to the book club. So that women have a place to join together
and also try to meet up in person and talk about things that are relevant to their
lives in their 40s and 50s.
Colleen:- Well, that sounds great. So what if we’re 57 and we’re kind
of in both groups? What do we do?
Shelley:- I look at it more or less about age and more
about life stage because there are a lot of women in their late 50s that have
retired already. There’s a lot of women in their 80s that are still working. There’s
a lot of women in their 40s that are, I don’t know, maybe caring for elderly
parents. Everybody’s in different stages. So I actually look at it like The
Girlfriend kind of covers some stages and then The Ethel is more different stages,
if that makes sense. But you could be in your fifties and
be in the Ethels because you’ve retired, maybe you’ve lost your spouse, maybe you’re,
I don’t know what the situation is, but you know, you could feel more of an Ethel
connection than a girlfriend connection with even if you’re in your forties or
fifties, you know.
Colleen: And can you do both groups?
Shelley: You could, of course. Of course.
Yes. There are no rules. Okay, go Okay, no, we don’t welcome men though. I’m sorry
There’s no men allowed because women want to feel like I just want to talk with
with girlfriends I want to just talk to friends about what’s going on in my life.
Bridgett: I think I was reading one of your one of the articles where
some women brought their spouse on a cruise and then some group of women went
without their spouse and the women with the men were
looking at the women at the women only table and they were just laughing and having a good
old time and the women with their husbands were kind of quiet. They were like, “I
wish I was over there.”
Shelley: No, I know. It’s true. I mean, these women really,
you know, stick up for each other and they support one another. There was a woman
who was going to Chicago a couple weeks ago with her best friend for her first
girls weekend in like decades, and her best friend backed out at the last second.
And she said, “Oh my gosh, I’ve got this plane ticket from New York to Chicago.
What should I do?” She posted in the Ethel Groups, the Ethel Circle and the Ethel
on the Go, and said, “I’m coming to Chicago. What should I see?” And all these
women said, “Hey, we’re in Chicago. We’ll meet you. Let’s go to dinner. We’ll take
you around.” And she had the best weekend ever. And she met older women Ethels, you
know, in Chicago, and they didn’t know each other. So a lot of the women say, “I’m
too old to make new friends.” And that’s just not true. You can make an old
friend, a new friend, whether you’re, you know, 12, 40, 80, 90, whatever.
And I really believe that. I think that’s what our overriding, my overriding goal is
to show women you can make new connections. You can make friends, no matter what
age you are.
Colleen: I – Love that. It’s so true. It’s getting a little bit out of your
comfort zone. Just a tiny step.
Bridgett: – Right, you gotta put yourself out there. – And it
can make a world of difference.
Shelley: – It’s great. You know, you won’t regret it. I swear.
Colleen: – We will make sure to have the links for The Ethel and the girlfriend in our show
notes. Shelly, thank you so much for joining us today. And thank you for all you’re
doing because like I said in the very beginning, we hear from so many women who
felt isolated and invisible and you are doing such good work in changing that
narrative. So thank you. Thank you.
Shelley: I so appreciate that. Thank you for having me.
It’s been really fun. Thank you.