EPISODE LINK: ALISON LARKIN

BOOK: GRIEF…A COMEDY

TRANSCRIPT:

Colleen: – Welcome back to Hot Flashes and Cool Topics. Today, our guest is Alison Larkin.

Welcome to the show.

Alison: – Oh, it’s very exciting to be here.

Colleen: – Well, thank you for

joining us. And, you know, we are gonna talk about your book, “Grief, A Comedy,”

which as soon as we read the title, we were like, “Hmm, okay.” But, you know,

as someone who laughs at funerals or because I’m uncomfortable and people give me dirty

looks. I get it. It’s the way you process. So I thought we would start with a

little bit about how you met the love of your life when you, right after 50,

can we talk about him?

Alison: Well, yes. I had basically avoided love my whole life,

probably for adoption related reasons. Like many adopted people,

even though I had a very happy adoptive family, I would date people I didn’t like

so if they did leave me it wouldn’t matter. So that was my background and I had

two wonderful children. I’d married a much older man who was very good at cleaning

the kitchen but preferred to sleep in another room and it had been a very lonely

marriage which I did leave when my husband lost all my money. So I came to the

Berkshires where I lived with a seven -year -old and a nine -year -old. And I fell in

love with this part of America. And I raised two children. I set up an audiobook

company from just outside my back door. And I thought, that’s it. Love is something

for other people. It’s not going to happen to me, but I’ve got a great life. I

have community, I have friends. And then when my kids went to college,

a friend of mine said, “Why don’t you try online dating?” So there I am in my,

you know, early 50s trying online dating for the first time.

And I met a man who talked about himself for three hours straight and then told me

what a great conversationalist I am. I met a man who I swear to God actually had

scrambled egg in his beard and I met a man who said,

“I’m a catch. I own a multi-million dollar company.

And I said, I’m terribly sorry, I don’t mean to be rude, but have you been

drinking? And he said, no, I’m from Connecticut.

Colleen: sounds like a real winner.

Alison: So I thought, oh God, I can’t do this. I mean, so I just gave up and I one

Sunday I’m going into the Red Lion Inn which is this historic hotel in Stockbridge,

Massachusetts where I live which is basically Norman Rockwell territory.

And I’m asking the receptionist for a New York Times because I like to do the

crossword and the only one I can do is on a Sunday because it’s the easiest. So I

ask her for the paper and she says she’s very sorry but the last paper’s taken

and then she points over her shoulder and there’s this man and he’s looking over at

me and he’s grinning sheepishly and he says “I’m sorry I took the last paper” and

then he’s handing me his New York Times and it turned out that he had come to the

United dates from India, 30 years previously, exactly the same time I came to

America to find my birth mother in Tennessee. But that’s a whole different story,

honey. So I talked to him and we just clicked. I mean, I’ve been in my studio narrating epic

romances like Pride and Prejudice and, you know, Jane and Jane Eyre and reading

about the great romance, but thought, well, this isn’t gonna happen for me and it

probably isn’t real and then it happened. And I met him and it was really love at

first sight. And we just clicked, we found each other hilarious.

And we were together for almost two years and he came to England and met my family

and his family lived in California and I met them and we just had a tremendous

compatibility and we were planning to spend the rest of our lives together in

California and the Berkshire and Vermont where he lived and possibly England and then

five days after he asked me to marry him we had had a perfect day looking

up at the stars walking through the Vermont countryside playing Rummy which by the

way is my favorite game and then the next morning he said he wasn’t feeling well

and it was in 2020 it was or it August 2020 and of course at that time they said

well you’ve got to go and have a COVID test and then I drove him down to the to

the Medical Center and was waiting outside by the car. They wouldn’t let me go

in with him because of COVID and I said well you know he has had a triple bypass,

he’d had one at 49, so you know please stay with him. Then,

about half an hour after he went in, a security guard comes over and tells me that

they left him alone in a room and that when they came back, they found him on the

floor in cardiac arrest and that this brilliant, beautiful,

54 -year -old man had just been pronounced dead.

And so it was a sudden death. It was a terrible shock to everybody. He was

beloved, not just by me. And then the most extraordinary thing happened to me.

I had avoided love my entire life because I was so afraid of the worst happening.

And then I found it. And then the very worst did happen but to my astonishment

instead of wanting to hide under the bed and never come out again I found that I

wanted to live and love more fully than ever and it was a complete shock I

suddenly felt acutely aware of how quickly life can go.  I had been friends with

Archbishop Desmond Tutu, who knew my work, and he found out what had happened.

And he said, “Alison, you absolutely have to tell this story as widely as possible,

because it will bring hope to a world that badly needs it.” And so I did,

you can’t say no to Archbishop Desmond Tutu. So, I had been a comedian and I

returned to comedy. I wrote a show and it went to Edinburgh and London and it was

bringing a lot of joy. That’s what the critics kept saying. This is something that

shows that you really can find joy after loss.

And then I wrote this book and the book, which is also called “Grief: A Comedy,”

starts six weeks after “Bhima died” when he shows up at my kitchen table as charming

and witty as ever determined to help me find love again.

And it’s imaginary, of course. Or is it?

Bridgett: Yeah,

that was, you know, what I wanted to know is, so when you were describing what he

was wearing. And so too, did he look like in full form to you?

Like, sitting there?

Alison:  Well, it was, it was really, it’s very much imagination.

But whenever I picture him, I mean, throughout the book, he’s sitting there and he

makes me go out dating. And he makes me go on online dates. But of course, this

time, he’s right with me in my imagination. So sometimes I’d imagine him wearing,

you know, an orange shirt. Sometimes he’d be sitting on top of my laundry like some

kind of Hindu God telling me for” god’s sakes you can’t date the guy who’s wearing

a tupee Alison”. “No, he’s too old for you and please at least try this one.”

“He seems reasonable.” And so it was, you know, I don’t know how much is real and

how much isn’t. All I know is that if people do believe that when somebody we love

very deeply dies that we can continue our relationship with them forever, if we

allow ourselves to. Now, how would that happen through the imagination, through

picturing someone, not necessarily literally, or is it? How can we know?

So, no, was it a sort of, I mean, look, for me, a medium is a dress size,

you know, I’m not, I don’t know about this stuff.

All I know is that when the body dies, the love stays.

And so this love story has continued and I’ve been getting women in their fifties

and even sixties writing to me and saying, Well, my husband died or I thought I

was too old and then I read the book and now I am going out and I am going to

live every minute and I’m going to love again. And if I lose, I’ll love again

because love is the only thing that matters. Isn’t it?

And the only way we have to connect because it’s only in connection that love can

find expression. So I’ve written this book, it’s very short. It’s got short chapters,

it’s a love story. It’s called “Grief and Comedy” ’cause I thought the title was

funny. (laughing)

Colleen: – It’s catchy, it’s definitely catchy. – Yeah. – You know,

I think when reading the book, you talk about so many different types of love.

Because there is not just one type of love. You talk about the love for your

children. You talk about the love for your adoptive parents for your dog. I mean,

there’s so many different types of love. And in my personal reading of the book,

I felt like it was more your subconscious processing the death.

Bridgett:  I agree.

Alison: Probably.

Colleen: Even like simple things like you were saying at one point that he was

fully paying attention to me, which in life he would have been on his texts. And I

was like, that’s her subconscious saying, I really wanted you to pay full attention

to me when I was talking to you. And that’s exactly the beauty when somebody dies.

You can create them into the person that you really wanted them to be.

Alison: There may

indeed be something too. But you know, I mean, I’m sure you two have had loved

ones of some kind who you’ve lost. But isn’t it true? I mean, with both of you

that like, if you’re in a little bit of a pickle and you don’t know what to do,

you know exactly what advice they’d give you. You know what they’d say. And so you

can sort of say, well, here’s the issue. And then really listen to the wisest part

of who they were. And then isn’t that sort of still being with you?

Bridgett:  Absolutely.

Absolutely. And, you know, I love to, in your story about, you know, finding love

and how you had been avoiding it. And then the one time you all got mad at each

other or you got mad at him, the caps, the caps on bottles.

Can you tell a little bit about that? And then later with the one of the guys

that you went out with. Oh my God. And the caps.

Alison: Yeah. It’s so interesting you

should pick up on that. Okay. Um, well, I have always been a little bit,

I don’t know what it is about me with bottles, but I lose the tops on bottles.

I’ve always done this. It’s not going to change. That’s just me. And I got a lot

of criticism growing up from my, my parents who were the tidiest people in England

and they adopted me. Um, and I And I am a very sort of creative, unpredictable,

spontaneous and messy top loser when it comes to bottles.

So we’re on holiday in Spain and we’re on the beach. And Bhima says,

suddenly, “Alison,

where’s the top of the bottle?” And I said, “well, I don’t know where

the top of the bottle.” he says, “well, for God’s sake, you’ve got to find the top

to the bottle.” And I thought, well, that’s it then, isn’t it? It’s over. Because if

he’s going to speak to me like that, that’s not going to happen. So I walked away

and I looked out over the ocean and I thought, well, you know, I cannot have

anybody telling me what to do. And if he’s going to become a dictator, this is it.

Now, he comes up to me, he says, what’s wrong? And I burst into tears,

and I told him the truth.

And I said, “I’m not an idiot.” And he said, “I never said you were an idiot.”

And I said, “Yes, but you were criticizing me “for the tops and the bottles, “and

I simply can’t have that.” And instead of getting defensive or telling me,

you know, “Come on,” he said, “I am so sorry, and I will never do it again.”

And he didn’t. It was another part of the book where, you know,

he was from India. So I remember once I said, “Oh, we’re going to make the bed.”

I said, “We’ve got to make the bed.” And he goes, “Well, I don’t do that. “I’m a

Brahman and I just burst out laughing.” I said, He said, “What?” He said,

“I’m not going to make that.” I said, “You know, if you think that I am going to

spend my life cooking, doing your laundry and making your bed,

this is my precious life. That’s not happening.” And he looked at me and said, “Oh,

so it’s a deal breaker.” I said, “Oh yeah.” And he said, “Absolutely. You take the

left side, I’ll take the right.” So he was the kind guy who could apologize

and listen and it was always done with humor. And so then in the book where I

think I’m off on some date and Bhima’s very disapproving of this guy because he’s

much too old he has a toupee he tells limericks all the time. I clearly don’t

really like him but I’m sort of trying to find good things and Bhima is standing by

the side going “oh my god, oh no, this is going to be a disaster. This is not a

good one for you, Alison.” And suddenly this guy looks and the fridge says,

“Where’s the top to the bottle?” And I say, “I don’t know.” And I was so sure

that I put the top on the bottle and he starts to criticize me and Bhima’s going,

“At last, it’s over.” (laughing)

And of course, it runs out that Bhima, the imaginary Bhima has removed the top

and hidden it somewhere so we could get rid of this guy.

Bridgett: That was another thing.

You were a people pleaser and you didn’t want to hurt people’s feelings.

Alison: That’s true. Yes.

Bridgett:  And I mean, that is so relatable, I think to a lot of women,

especially, I mean, when we get older, yeah, we do know what we want. So I feel

like we really know what we want. We don’t want to settle for things that we don’t

want, but you still, and I know that I do this too, you didn’t want to hurt

anybody’s feelings.

Alison: – You are so right. You’re very clever, you two. – But yes, but

here’s what the difference is. I married my first husband because I didn’t want to

hurt his feelings. I really didn’t even like him that much, but I just thought he’d

be so upset if I said, no, big mistake, and I’ve learned. And now,

and this is the gift of the tragedy of losing Bhima, I don’t waste my time.

So I have been doing some dates, but it’s three dates and you’re out. And I don’t,

because I know in the long run, I’ll hurt their feelings more if I, you know,

don’t tell them the truth. And I just think that in a world where the truth is

under threat, we have to, as women, we have to lead and we have to show our

children and our spouses and our community this, let’s just tell the truth kindly.

And the beauty of it is, I don’t really care anymore what people think. So true.

I just don’t. And I love dating. I love, and again, this is a shocker,

but for me, I’ve never been, I’ve never been as full or as happy as I am now in

my entire life. I think, again, because I know it can go like that. And so I

don’t want to waste a minute of whatever time I’ve got left. But I don’t have all

the answers, however, which is really annoying.

Colleen: – You know, for women, we obviously have a lot of women in our demographic who

either get divorced or lose a spouse or lose a partner and for them they’re

not as interested in having another relationship but for you it almost was like you

had that private time before you met Bhima and now you don’t want to find

his love again. You want to find a different one. Why do you think that that door

was opened once you met Bhina? It’s not like, okay, I’ve had the love. I’m good.

But you want to actually experience it again.

Alison:  So I found out that love,

if it doesn’t last, it’s not going to kill you. I found out that I am a mammal

and I like to sleep with another mammal. Now, it doesn’t necessarily have to have

two legs, but humans have a little more to say than dogs do. However,

I am also very clear that I do not, I would much rather be by myself and I have

lots of very good friends and I have work I absolutely love doing than with

somebody who isn’t right for me. So now I’ve learned how to say no. It’s so

liberating. So, I mean, to be honest, right now, I’m sort of, I’m just so busy.

I’ve got the books come out and it’s had this effect on a lot of people. And I’m

excited about it.

I think this I was just talking about,

this is my friend this morning, I’ve been hiking already this morning, and sort of

thinking, you know, I’m really, they say the happiest people in the world are the

single women and the married men. That’s what they say. I don’t know who

they is, but it has been said, but some, and I’m very, very happy, independent. I

think when you get to a point when it’s not that you need a relationship, but now

I know what it can be like to be in a relationship with someone that I’m really

compatible with who I whose company I absolutely love. I Would love to find that

again, but I’m not going to settle for somebody just because they are you know,

I like them enough. It’s not of interest to me. What’s of interest is my

Work, is doing podcasts like this, getting to meet people like you. I love your

podcast. The work you’re doing is so important. Now, if I was busy having to cook

for some guy, I might not have time. I love the idea of finding another soulmate,

but I’m not really looking. I just think it’s going to happen. I’m just not sure

when, maybe when the work’s finished. But Desmond Tutu did say, “I want you to

know, Alison, that I have asked God to find you another soulmate and she said she

is on the case.”

Bridgett: Yeah. And I love that too. I mean, your story, it’s so, the things that have

happened in your life, it’s really fascinating.

Colleen: You know, just how you just kind of

throw out that you’re friends with Desmond Tutu.

Bridgett: How you and Desmond Tutu met, didn’t you have

get to go to lunch?

Alison: He really was the guy behind the book.

I mean, he was the one who told me to do it. And I probably wouldn’t have done

it because, you know, what it’s like is so much work writing a book. But now I’m

excited because I had this email at this very mourn, this very mourning from a

woman who had lost her husband. And she said she’d read Grief: A Comedy. And she

said, Alison, I wasn’t even thinking of dating again. I wasn’t even thinking of

loving again. And I just thought, why not, having read it?

And she did and she said, I’ve just met, I’ve met a new true love. So I just

think, you know, if just for her alone, perhaps this has been worth it because we

can’t, we don’t need to hide, but love of course can be everywhere. It’s not, as

you say, it’s not just a man. It’s love of a community of things that we love to

do, of the people we connect with, people we connect with on Zoom. I mean, and

yeah, we all have a choice every day. And my great belief is that in a divided

world, we must find our common humanity. And everybody loves,

lives, loses people and finds ways to move forward.

And that was what so exciting when I give speeches or I do my show or I meet

other people. They’ve been from different political views, they’re from different races,

different backgrounds, different ages, but we come together in this place of being

very, very human. And love is part of us,

of being human. And one of the ladies I said to, you know, when she came to my

show, I said, “Look, can I just ask you all, did you have an ongoing relationship

and a sense of your beloved after they died?” ‘Cause a lot of people were coming

from around the country, this was in London, who’d heard me on the BBC, and they

came. And I said, “Well, did you feel the ongoing relationship?” And one woman burst

into tears. And she said, “Thank you for asking the question.” And another woman

says, “Oh my God,” she said, “Alright, I’ve not told anybody this before,

but every night I set the table and I have a right old chat with my husband,

Wilf, and he’s been dead for four years. And then we’re suddenly all talking and

about things we have in common. And that is what I love about your podcast,

is what I love about this sort of discussion, because these are the things that

bring us as women together. And that’s what matters. The rest is noise,

in my yeah, it’s just that that sense of community. And when you feel like you’re

not alone, it doesn’t matter the situation.

Bridgett:  But when you feel especially grief,

though, when you feel like you’re not alone, just talking, that just

lifts something in you. And I still, I find it so amazing, too, that you faced your

biggest fear of losing love. Yes. And that, you know,

and that When you face your biggest fear and you hear that about all kinds of

things like emerging, you know, just immersing yourself into something that you fear

so much. But then when the worst, when the biggest fear happens, that you can go

on. That what is a really big thing I got from this book was that you can go

on and you can be happy.

Alison: And you could be very happy. I know.

And I mean, and this is part, I don’t know what you think. All I know is after

Bhima died, I had this tremendous joy and sense of the love still with me.

It’s still here five years later. It hasn’t gone anywhere. And it’s almost as if

it’s not just in spite of the tragedy. It’s almost because of it. You get opened

to just connecting with some people might call it God. I don’t know what it is

But there’s something it’s love. Maybe if God is love, maybe that’s what it

is. I don’t know for women who are listening who are grieving a loss of a loved

one It it seems in the book that it’s that you share that it’s really important to

talk about that person, to keep them as part of your life, to keep that love

alive.

Colleen: Is that something you would recommend for women who come up to you and say, I’ve

just lost someone or it’s been a year and no one talks about them anymore? – Or

– You know, or they’re afraid to talk about them so they don’t want to hurt you.

What would you say to women who are going through that?

Alison:  – Well, I would recommend

doing what I did, which was to find a grief counsellor. I found a very gifted

grief counsellor whose name I’ll share with you. Her name was Moya Keating, M -O -Y

-A, Keating, K -E -A -T -I -N -G. And I spoke with her by Zoom once a week because it

was the pandemic. And I was able with her, she was a grief counsellor who really

knew how to listen deeply and it saved me so I would first of all say, if your

family and friends can’t talk about it with you find a group or an individual

person who can. There are some wonderful grief counsellors who will and there’s a lot

online as well so I would say immediately, I get it and the person who I

could talk to was Moya and also I wish it hadn’t been in the pandemic because I

couldn’t go to a grief group but oh my goodness if I could have done it would

have helped me enormously. I would say connect with other people and

I mean there’s no right one right way to do it. I know, I spent a lot

of time lying on the sofa, curled up in a ball, and

I was very numb. And then I heard his voice, imaginary voice, in my head saying,

“Allison, get up off the couch and get in the best physical shape of your life.”

So for me I thought well I haven’t had any choices to whether he dies, I haven’t

had any choice about anything, but I can choose how I respond to this and I thought

if I can get into really good physical shape avoid sugar because it always makes me

crash and get depressed after I have a bar of chocolate and just look after my

body, then that’s something I can control and this was the message that

Desmond Tutu taught me and that I learnt I can’t control what happens to me but I

can control how I respond to it. So for me and that’s how I live now in

every way because we do have a choice in how we respond to what’s around us.

We have a choice in what we think about, in what we focus on. So another thing I

would say to the grieving person is go to the Book of Joy. It’s the Dalai Lama

and it’s Desmond Tutu and there’s actually an audiobook of it and what I would do

at night, I was suddenly on my own at night and I would turn the audiobook on as

I was falling asleep and then as I inevitably woke up in the night, I would hear

either Desmond Tutu or the Dalai Lama sort of talking about love and about compassion

and about great spiritual ideas that are in this world along with the rest of

everything else. And so I started to turn my attention towards things that would

nourish and be good because that’s where I have a choice. This is the other thing

I was talking to my friend Sarah this morning and saying, “You know, I scroll too

much on my phone. And I look at all this stuff and I’ve got to stop this. It’s

not like anyone’s forcing me to scroll on my phone. And I do have a choice. I

could scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll and spend the whole day like that with,

you know, on an iPhone or I could look out the window oh my goodness there’s a

heron out there, wait look there’s a child who is playing and needs someone to

throw a ball with them and oh wait you know there’s a member of my

community who may need help right now and hey maybe I could listen to them for a

while but we’ve got the choice. We’ve got that choice and it’s not easy because it’s

very addictive the technology in the phone but I think that’s anyway I’m rambling.

Bridgett: No that is something I need to hear right now.

Colleen: I think we all do honestly because

it passes time it’s safe you almost

become it’s safe

Bridgett: but not mentally safe sometimes

Colleen: yeah but like you don’t have to

put effort into being out in the world and speaking with

people and connecting.

And the phone makes it way too easy not to do that. It gives you the option of

saying, I don’t need to do that, but yet you’re isolating yourself.

Alison: – And it robs

you of the time. Like I was just thinking, everybody keeps telling me, oh my God,

the summer has gone by so fast. And I go, oh my God, it has because it has. Why?

And I thought, why? And then I suddenly had this insight now I don’t know what you

think of this, but I was thinking is it because I’ve spent so much time on my

phone I mean a lot of its work um that that I’ve missed the summer.

Do we need to all collectively go “oh my goodness are we giving our

lives away to this technology because it’s not real”. 

Bridgett: it’s true. – It is.

My son he came in this weekend and if he saw me on the phone, he would say “Mom,

you quit scrolling, quit doing it. You’re gonna get triggered. You’re gonna get

upset and quit doing it.” And you know, it was great, you know. Okay,

you’re right, you’re right. Maybe I just needed to hear him say that is to “quit

doing that.” And you know, that little just voice there, which is was right there

telling me, but now I hear it. When I’m on it and if I get triggered, I hear him

saying, “Mom, you got to quit doom -scrolling.”

Alison: That’s right. And like my friend

Sarah was saying this morning, “Oh, I’m doom -scrolling at four in the morning when

she wakes up.” And I said, “Well, you’ve got a choice. You could do that, or you

could read a book, or you could turn your attention to something inspiring.” Because

there are men just as there’s so many wonderful things happening in our world but

because you know that the iPhone gets you to go “oh no this is happening,, oh no

that’s happening, we’re not paying attention to the other stuff so maybe

it’s about us paying attention to the things that can fill us up and make our

world better and make ourselves better and appealing to our higher selves. I think I

mean that’s sort of what I where I’m at or trying to be, but it’s not easy.

Bridgett: – But

you’ve done a really good job with it. I think that that’s really helpful that you

shared it because so many people are stuck in this grief. And it could be any kind

of grief, of losing a job and losing the people that you were once with at that

job or it could be a divorce. It could be anything. – Friendship, anything.

Colleen: – Friendships, grieving that, but just the yeah it can be a stage of life thing it

can be absolutely, empty nesting any of that,

Alison: not looking 28 anymore, learning to embrace

what 58 looks like

Colleen:  right there with you,  58.

Bridgett: I am almost, in December

Alison:  it’s fascinating and it’s such like we shed that we with every stage

of life we kind of like shared something so it’s constant change so you’re right,

we’re constantly grieving and I don’t know I wrote a song at the end of my show

um and the last lines in that song I mean basically “I can walk I can breathe I

can speak and see and hear and I can bend my knees, I’ve got two legs,

I find things funny, and if I keep my living simple, I’ve got enough money, I can

read any book. I can eat feta cheese. There are people I love who are living,

I can spend time with these. It’s not the life I thought I’d live, but I’m good

at changing plans. I’ve got a lot to be thankful for, and a likely long life span,

and when I’m missing my true love, if I get very still,

and close my eyes and take a breath, I can bring him near at will,

I can walk, I can breathe, I can shut out all distractions and take the time to

grieve, and if living is the price we pay for the deep love that we feel,

and grief is just part of the deal.”

Right? I wasn’t singing that way. That was speak singing like .

Bridgett: I listened to your audio book and followed along when

you sang it last night.

Alison: Oh, yeah. – It’s so nice that you heard the

audiobook.

Bridgett: – Yeah, which is a whole other fascinating thing about you.

Colleen: – Yeah, you’re so talented. It’s very clear how you would be an amazing narrator for

audiobooks, which you do. And thank you so much, Allison, for coming on today.

Grief: A Comedy. I mean, I don’t think we could end a conversation better than you

singing us out. So thank you for that. Thank you for just processing your grief in

a way that shares it with the world. And so maybe women and men feel a little

less alone in this time. And so we appreciate that you came and talked to us.

We appreciate the book and we just look forward to seeing what’s next from you.

Alison: Well thank you and thank you for the work you’re doing in connecting everybody and

talking about things that really matter.

It’s really important work so thank you to both of you.